Ok so my setup as it stands right now consists of:
Garrett T3 60 trim turbo
FMIC
2.25" charge pipes
Adjustable FPR set at 35PSI at idle
Cartech FMU
Ford Racing 440CC Green Top Injectors
Greddy Emanage with boost, injection, ignition harnesses
I was running the GMSC injectors and was having a hard time getting anything under a 14:1 AFR under any level of boost. So i figured the most likely problem was that the SC injectors just weren't up to the task for whatever reason. So last night my friend and I installed the 440's. Car started up fine, we got the idle dialed in pretty well at 14.6. Then drove around under vac. got all those areas pretty well tuned, then we moved into the boost tuning.
So unlike before when I floored it this time my AFR's went to 11:1 GREAT!!! as we climbed through the RPM it started to climb from 11:1 at 3krpm to about 14.0 at 5300 rpm. Now while we have been trying to work the bugs out I have the WG set to about 4psi, and at 4 psi the fuel pressure stays steady at 70psi. With 440 injectors there is NO WAY i should need 70PSI of fuel for 4psi!!!!
So at this point we hooked up the autotap to see what the hell the stock ECU was doing and heres what we got. (This is at WOT and about 5200 RPM where I cross into 14:1 AFR)
TPS Voltage - 4.3v
TPS Angle - 86.7%
Injector 1, 2, 3, and 4 PW - 10.97
Manifold pressure 29.8inHG
Knock count 0
Knock retard 0
Timing advance 16deg
When you do the math you come to find that my ECU is only driving my injectors at just under 50% (49.88% when you use the exact #'s) Does anyone have ANY idea why the ECU is doing this? I know I SHOULD be able to use the emanage to add PW with the additional injection map, but I'm still having the duty cycle calculation error that no one else seems to know anything about and I still haven't figured out.
At this point I'm about ready to yank the damn emenage and just go with the FPR and FMU by themselves since I know of several people with smaller injectors (370's) that are running solid 12:0's all the way to redline on just injectors, FMU and AFPR. I really don't want to get rid of the emanage because it really does allow you to tune the engine for all load and throttle conditions and does a really good job at it, but this is the ONLY difference that I can see at this point between my setup and several others that are running fine.
DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS FOR ME???? MY BRAIN HURTS!!!!!!!!
<img src=http://home.comcast.net/~richnj221/smiley.gif>
Maybe the fuel pump is holding you back.
Were thoes green tops a direct replacement for the 03+ ecos like the red tops?
My ecotec does the same thing on Juice-starts out at 11-1 then ends up back at 14.6 and my tps only reads 87.6 wide open??????????? I do not have e-manage. It almost seams that the ecm is not going open loop? If it stays closed loop then it will continue to adj for 14.7ish. I know its not supposed to do that under load but somethings going on.
Gregory Spencer wrote:My ecotec does the same thing on Juice-starts out at 11-1 then ends up back at 14.6 and my tps only reads 87.6 wide open??????????? I do not have e-manage. It almost seams that the ecm is not going open loop? If it stays closed loop then it will continue to adj for 14.7ish. I know its not supposed to do that under load but somethings going on.
Have you ever touched your TB or TPS sensor or are they still 100% stock from the factory. I had to remove my tps sensor from my old to my new TB when I upgraded to a 62mm. The TPS isn't adjustable, but I'm wondering if maybe the ECU isn't seeing enough voltage to enter open loop mode.
Does anyone even know IF the ecotec ECU's EVER go into open loop?
<img src=http://home.comcast.net/~richnj221/smiley.gif>
Yeah, someone do us a big favor and at least throw some ideas out here...
As i was watching the wideband, he'd get into boost, the a/f would go down to about 11:1 from the FMU, and then steadily rise until it had hit 14:1 by about 5900 rpm. The autotap not only showed it was only getting to 50% duty cycle, but I also watched it BACK off of the injector pulsewidth toward the top of 3rd gear, even though we weren't anywhere near rev limiter yet.
The thing is, his emanage for some reason is reporting the correct RPM, and the correct pulsewidth, but the incorrect duty cycle (it says 100% when it should only be around 50% according to pulsewidth). So the emanage won't inject any more fuel after it reports 100% but i can't see why with the additional injection map cleared, all zeroes, that the STOCK ECU would pull fuel like that at WOT.
The only things theories we have right now is that 1.) the tps needs to be at 90% or more to enter closed loop which is why the computer is still attempting to see 14.7:1 a/f ratio, since his TPS angle only reads 87% on the autotap... or 2.) that the emanage for some reason is still running in the background and the incorrect duty cycle calculation is somehow affecting the stock ecu even though the emanage is not being told to add or remove any fuel.
Seriously guys, if i have to spend much longer in the passenger seat of his car staring into a laptop wraking my brain as to why this is happening, all while he's TRYING to cause me motion sickness by bombing down back roads, i'm gonna go nuts. So save both of our sanity and PLEASE help out if you have any ideas.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
I had the GMSC injectors with my intank walbro 255, Cartech FMU and Accel adj. FPR and did exactly what you guys are descibing at only 5 PSI!!. So i thought it was my injectors and replaced them with ford red tops. ever since then ive seen nuthing but 11.8-12.5 a/f ratios on the wideband...in 3rd gear it starts to lewan to about 12.8 around 5k but i think thats only because im only running 5 PSI with the cartech and no more fuel is getting push through.....im at 5 PSI around 3500 RPMs.
The ECO ecu strives for 14.7. The ECO is relentless in its fight for that fuel ratio and has a much wider range of how far it will push the fuel maps to do so. The SAFC or some type of injector controller like the E-Manage might be the only option if you don't want to use an EIC.
You won't solve this problem with fuel pressure, sorry guys.
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Quote:
The SAFC or some type of injector controller like the E-Manage might be the only option if you don't want to use an EIC.
I thought Exterminator is using greddy e-manage ??
Quote:
You won't solve this problem with fuel pressure, sorry guys.
Thats funny, once i changed my gmsc to red tops my a/f ratios was pretty decent....or should i say acceptable.../shrug
Suppose I should clarify... Some seem to do alright, but those who have issues have a very hard time resolving them. For some reason the Eco won't release its grip on the 14.7 A/F on some cars, but on others it works fine.
The Eco is a very strange motor as far as fuel goes....
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well, thats our problem,. we're trying to run emanage, but the additional injection map doesn't work because the main unit is somehow calculating injector duty cycle incorrectly. Despite the fact that it is reading the correct RPM, and pulsewidth, the duty cycle is consistently calculated at DOUBLE what it should be. So once we get up to 50% duty cycle, the emanage thinks its at 100%, and won't attempt to inject any more fuel.
Rich is an electronics engineer by trade, so I'm pretty confident everything's hooked up right, but I don't know if maybe something in the info he had was incorrect, or if maybe by some freak chance the main unit of the emanage itself is somehow f-ed up.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Here's a few thoughts.
The eco pcm still uses an O2 sensor for feedback when adjusting AFR. No feedback, no adjustment. Or, wrong feedback, wrong adjustment. If you have a friend who is an EE you might ask him to devise a circuit that uses a 2 bar map sensor for input to bias the O2 sensor voltage lean under boost conditions. If the Eco pcm thinks the engine is lean, well, it will just have to add a little fuel to make things right. Sure it's cheating but GM started it!
Did I read that Emanage could only add/ subtract 20% to the injector duration? Or was that a different product?
There must be something simple being overlooked with the duty cycle issue.
-->Slow
^^ The idea of an "O2 bypass" has been tossed around.... In all honesty I've been trying to convince him not to just because its still a band-aid and would be nice to get it running properly without all the jury-rigging. Of course, word on the street is that the 2.2 supercharger kit is finally out so maybe he can just get the reflash for that and everything will be vastly easier.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
well just a quick update, it's not caused by the TPS sensor only seeing 87%
I biased it up to 100% today and the car acted the same.
<img src=http://home.comcast.net/~richnj221/smiley.gif>
first and foremost i am running the 2.4l twincam motor... so any information i provide should be taken with a grain of salt
i would definately say this was a fuel pump problem if you hadn't seen the ecu pull back pulsewidth. hands down the stock fuel pump will not flow your requirements with that much pressure. 440cc's shouldnt need that much fuel pressure anyway. if this was a problem, i would cut out the FMU immediately. 35psi base is a good start WITHOUT AN FMU. (i am running 550cc's with the emanage, with an upgraded pump at only 22psi of fuel pressure no fmu but yet still rich at 11psi)
but since you have seen the ecu pull back timing there is something wrong with that. on the 2.4l i am almost positive the TPS sensor sees WOT at 4.6 volts. could be different that the ecotech, or maybe it is slipping my mind too. Do you actually see the TPS at 100% at 4.3 volts, then start to back up percent? if so the TPS sensor is not the problem.
now these 2 issues would lead me to fix my issues on a 2.4l twincam, but they may or may not help you. i see that if the pulsewidth is being pulled and the AFR is going stoich, then clearly the car is staying in closed loop. Find out if it is staying closed the entire time, you say you see it going to 11:1 temporarily, but perhaps its the huge fuel pressure jolt and the bigger injectors causing it to be 11:1 temporarily until the ECU changes it. if it is indeed staying in closed loop all the time, i can almost say with certantly that the TPS sensor is indeed now showing its full voltage.
one thing i can say is tuning the e-manage will not resolve this problem.
on a side note, what e-manage rotary settings have you chosen.
________________________________________________
...bone stock
You are using the stock fuel pump?
I am using a Cartech FMU, Vortec inline fuel pump, and a Walbro 255 high pressure intank fuel pump. On one dyno run we forgot to turn on the inline pump, and the Walbro by itself couldnt even keep the fuel pressure at 70psi. If I remember correctly, the fuel pressure shot up to 70psi and dropped down to around 60 psi in the upper rpms....the air/fuel on that run looked nasty.
So if you are running the stock fuel pump, I wouldnt think that it would be able to keep up with the FMU...especially since my Walbro pump couldnt keep up.
Do you have your fuel pressure gauge mounted inside the car?
275hp & 306tq - 1999 2.2 ohv
13.2 @ 108 mph
-1996 2.4 liter + Turbo + Built motor + Torco + More boost = Lots o' Power
-2000 Mustang GT + 2004 Cobra motor, Whipple 2.3 supercharger,
built rear-end,Dodge Viper spec T56 6 speed, bolt-ons = wheelies at the track!!!!!
What do the rotary switches control anyway, i have mine set to the specs from ny-jbodies.org e-manage setup information.
fuel pressure gauge is mounted on the car, it does drop off a little bit in the upper rpms but regardless, even 60 psi of fuel on 440's at 4 psi of boost should not be a 14.7:1 a/f. Rich was only seeing 87% throttle, so what he did was he built some kind of biasing device (i'm not the electronics guy, he is) to make sure that the computer would see a full 100% throttle from the tps, and it still behaves the same way... At this point he's about to just sit back and wait for the eco s/c reflash to become available.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
You might simply try clearing the pcm and disconnecting the O2 sensor. If you have problems maintaining a rich AFR in open loop, you can rule out closed loop as a potential culprit. If the AFR stays rich or even gets richer, then you'll know once and for all that the fuel pump & other parts are up to the task you've set for them.
-->Slow
slowolej wrote:You might simply try clearing the pcm and disconnecting the O2 sensor. If you have problems maintaining a rich AFR in open loop, you can rule out closed loop as a potential culprit. If the AFR stays rich or even gets richer, then you'll know once and for all that the fuel pump & other parts are up to the task you've set for them.
-->Slow
not a bad idea, this will definately give you a conclusion as to the TPS sensor being bad and if the fuel system is up to the task
________________________________________________
...bone stock
Jersey Jay 1.8T wrote:fuel pressure gauge is mounted on the car, it does drop off a little bit in the upper rpms but regardless, even 60 psi of fuel on 440's at 4 psi of boost should not be a 14.7:1 a/f.
regardless? YES IT DOES MATTER!
what fuel pump are you running? if it is indeed STOCK, right there is your problem. back it down to 45 something psi at WOT + BOOST and watch the air fuel ratio become rich again. if this means unplugging the vacuum line on the FMU... do it.
i bet you wont be disappointed.
now if you are running a different than stock fuel pump, something different is happening
________________________________________________
...bone stock
Like i said, the fuel pump isn't the issue. When we were first tuning the car with the fmu and 440's, we started with lower pressure, and had the same problem. 60psi is 60psi, and 60 psi flowing through 440 cc injectors should be capable of handling somewhere above 300hp whereas at 4 psi, Rich's car is nowhere close.
The car is pulling pulsewidth, its not the pump running out of steam. Rich just told me he unhooked the primary O2 sensor and while the ecu pulled a buttload of timing, the a/f ratio stayed 11:1 the whole time with no changes through the RPM band. So clearly, for one reason or another the car is not entering open loop.
What really doesn't make sense is that even for an all motor car, to maintain a 14.7:1 a/f ratio even at WOT is NOT a good a/f for power or safety, so why would GM have intentionally programmed the Eco ECU to maintain such a ratio? We have heard from a few people with the same problem. It would seem that while 02 model year ecotecs like QBE and some others aren't having issues, but there are more than one 04 model year cars that report the same problem. Any ideas?
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Quote:
What really doesn't make sense is that even for an all motor car, to maintain a 14.7:1 a/f ratio even at WOT is NOT a good a/f for power or safety, so why would GM have intentionally programmed the Eco ECU to maintain such a ratio?
At least you've narrowed down the problem.
It's not bad to maintain 14.7:1. It's just not best for power. It sounds like GM's got their sh*t together when it comes to the tuning. They're tuning for best emissions as much as possible, and they've got such good modeling of things like the catalytic converter temps and cylinder head behavior with this new engine that they can do what they've been promising to do for 10 years.
Quote:
We have heard from a few people with the same problem. It would seem that while 02 model year ecotecs like QBE and some others aren't having issues, but there are more than one 04 model year cars that report the same problem. Any ideas?
1) Install an older PCM. This may be a problem with emissions testing.
2) Bias O2 sensor. This will require designing, locating, or building a controller. Manual control is good, feedback based on commanded injector pulsewidth or O2 voltage is better.
3) Electronically disconnect the O2 sensor when greater than X throttle angle. Simpler than biasing the sensor, but may have the unwanted side effect of causing the car to use previously stored fuel trim (correction) values.
4) locate someone that can adjust the ecu programming to begin power mode sooner, if possible. Prolly a tough call to find someone.
5) Megasquirt!!!! Requires assembling and tuning your own fuel control computer.
6) Pulsewidth modulated extra injector. Requires controller, preferably feedback type based on O2 signal. Requires injector boss be installed. Requires careful thought.
7) Alky injection. Added benefit of allowing more boost. Big drawbacks if you forget to fill the alky reservoir.
8) Wait until ecu programming becomes available. <boring>
IMO, #3 is the fastest and least intrusive solution, while #5 is a good, practical solution.
good luck
-->Slow
Jay ill take your place in rich's car.....
You guys are so smart...this post actually gave me a headache...so many numbers...and ratios.....and words.....
i am working on a #3 setup right now, i will let you guys know how it goes.
modify the t/b so the TPS reads pretty close to 100% WOT. Hypsy had to do it, talk to him.
good luck
