This is a predicament I have had for a few weeks now. Over winter break I plan to swap my Auto 2200 turbo over to a manual. I am planning on fabricating a front transmission mount for my swap however I lack a local junkyard that has a manual j body in stock to measure from. If anyone has a manual j body and can take some accurate measurements for me I would very much appreciate it!
Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
Getrag for me, but I'm pretty sure that both of them are the same are they not? Just in a different position.
Any help is appreciated!
Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
They are different. Im pulling a 2000+ 2.4 in mid December, I will try get some measurements.
Why not buy a front mount from TTR?
You could also use a rear mount from GM as a front.
FU Tuning
^^YUP...And I even wrote up a how to with dimensions of it all as well. Very easy overall
Screaming for Mercy!! wrote:Why not buy a front mount from TTR?
You could also use a rear mount from GM as a front.
Few problems with this...
1. I do have the poly mounts for the transmission so I know how wide the mount has to spread for the mount bushing to slide inside. The front mount is different by a few hundred thousandths than the rear. I have not a clue why this is, but it is wider. Also the front has a kink in one ear that offsets the center bushing by about 3/8"
2. The kink in the ear that offsets the bushing in the mount determines where the mount centers on the frame rail thereby affecting drive line alignment if this kink is inadequate or larger than it should be.
3. Most of these measurements still wont tell me the angle the ears come down from the frame rail at. Nor will it tell me how far down from the frame rail the center bolt needs to be to maintain a level mounting of the transmission.
Why not buy a TTR mount? Because (No offense to Aaron at TTR) I refuse to spend $80 on a piece of plate steel bracketry I can fabricate by hand in a few hours by myself. This bracket is not complicated whatsoever... I am simply a perfectionist when it comes to fabrication.
UPDATE: Where the hell did all my local manual cavalier/sunfires go?
Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
When we did our first Eco swap into a pre 2000 cavy (2.2OHV 3 speed auto) we used to GM rear mount brackets. 1 for the front and 1 for the rear. This was no problem at all, and the car is still running and driving (just has a 2200 in it now).
the GM rear brackets are only like $35.
Mount the motor and tranny in (using the rear tranny bracket already in), and then connect the front mount and bracket it to the mount and figure out where to weld it too.
Not hard.
FU Tuning
Alex Richards wrote:Few problems with this...
1. I do have the poly mounts for the transmission so I know how wide the mount has to spread for the mount bushing to slide inside. The front mount is different by a few hundred thousandths than the rear. I have not a clue why this is, but it is wider. Also the front has a kink in one ear that offsets the center bushing by about 3/8"
2. The kink in the ear that offsets the bushing in the mount determines where the mount centers on the frame rail thereby affecting drive line alignment if this kink is inadequate or larger than it should be.
3. Most of these measurements still wont tell me the angle the ears come down from the frame rail at. Nor will it tell me how far down from the frame rail the center bolt needs to be to maintain a level mounting of the transmission.
Why not buy a TTR mount? Because (No offense to Aaron at TTR) I refuse to spend $80 on a piece of plate steel bracketry I can fabricate by hand in a few hours by myself. This bracket is not complicated whatsoever... I am simply a perfectionist when it comes to fabrication.
how did you come up with that conclusion for point number 2? I don't see how it would cause problems with drive line alignment. After all, in most of the install guides such as Philly Ds, he simply welds in the rear bracket and bolts the trans on with that to get an idea of where to weld the front bracket. From an uneducated viewpoint such as my own, I don't see how drive line alignment would be affected by the front bracket if the rear is sitting properly. Simply going by how the brackets are built, the rear looks much more sturdy. The front is fairly thin steel, and looks like it would only serve to help support the front of the transmission. Am I completely wrong on this? I plan on doing a swap in the spring, and was going to weld up a front bracket myself rather than spending $80 on one.
philly Ds thread for swap pics
Philly D, I know I have the picture saved somewhere that has the dimensions for the front bracket. Was it you who created it? I can't seem to find it again in your thread...
Screaming for Mercy!!, any pics of using the rear bracket for the front? Also, do you have a GM part number by chance? And do you order from gmpartsdirect? (I've searched, but can't seem to find it at the moment...if not, that's fine i'll keep digging)
All the info I have is in the how to I made. I guess you could build one or cut one off a old car for cheaper but it's not what I'd recommend. It's not much money and saves alot of hassle. Just my .02 tho
Senates684 S wrote:Alex Richards wrote:
2. The kink in the ear that offsets the bushing in the mount determines where the mount centers on the frame rail thereby affecting drive line alignment if this kink is inadequate or larger than it should be.
how did you come up with that conclusion for point number 2? I don't see how it would cause problems with drive line alignment. After all, in most of the install guides such as Philly Ds, he simply welds in the rear bracket and bolts the trans on with that to get an idea of where to weld the front bracket. From an uneducated viewpoint such as my own, I don't see how drive line alignment would be affected by the front bracket if the rear is sitting properly. Simply going by how the brackets are built, the rear looks much more sturdy. The front is fairly thin steel, and looks like it would only serve to help support the front of the transmission. Am I completely wrong on this?
philly Ds thread for swap pics
Philly D, I know I have the picture saved somewhere that has the dimensions for the front bracket. Was it you who created it? I can't seem to find it again in your thread...
The reason it affects alignment is this...
Since the bracket comes down from the frame rail with two ears the bushing would normally be centered with equal amounts of extra space on each side. Our bracket has a kink in one ear that moves it towards the outside of the frame rail roughly 3/8". This moves the bushing off to one side of the bracket instead of remaining centered. If this kink is not precise enough to get within tolerable limits the front bushing will either be too far to the inside or outside of the frame rail which will attempt to move the front mount of the transmission likewise and could result in the engine and transmission not being squarely supported inside the bay.
The important measurement I'm having trouble "fudging" at this point is the length of the top portions of the mount where it splits from the portion that welds to the rail into the two ears. This angle and the length of each section (Measure B and apprx angle in the drawing) would be nice to know and would help me better scale the rest of the measurements
Senates, if you have that diagram i would appreciate it! thanks!
Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
I can't find it for the life of me. I think what happened is it was on my school laptop, and I zerod the HDD and didn't pull the folder off of it first
Anyone wanna make a good blueprint from a front bracket and i'll send ya $10 paypal?
i'll keep looking though. (just thought to myself perhaps it's saved on the college system, i'll check tomorrow when on campus)
On an unrelated note, I was doing some vertical welding last night and decided to lap weld two pieces similar to how the bracket will sit on the frame:
I literally did it in about 40 seconds, hence why it's not clean. Tack welded the back side, laid one bead (in a flat position) on the back, not pictured. set it upright facing me, laid a horizontal bead on the top. then one vertical down on each side, and another vertical down on each side. I didn't chip off the spatter beads or brush of the rust-color gunk, so that's what you're seeing in the picture. Took it to the machine to cut through it, which is why it's bent to hell. I laid it in the machine like in the first picture. The blade must be getting dull, since it bent the metal just below the welds. you can tell both pieces are bent, and the top piece is pushed into the bottom piece. the welds held up through, and look like the vertical welds penetrated fully. This was just a quick mess around with 5/32 mild steel pieces, globular transfer (was right at 20.9volts on the machine). I should have no problem making one similar enough to a stock bracket with thinner metal. I don't have anything to bend metal, so it'd be slightly different than a stock bracket. I realllly don't want to spend 80 on a small piece of metal either.
If you would have posted this about a week earlier I could have given you pictures and exact measurements of the ttr mount I have. unfortunately, its now welded to my frame rail with the transmission in the way.
I also cant measure my stock one as I destroyed it removing it from the car.
"Oil Leak ? What oil Leak ? Oh, Thats Just The Sweat From All The HorsePower!!"
haha bummer, were you doing a swap or were you simply repairing the one you destroyed? i'd be interested in hearing how you destroyed it if you were not doing a swap lol
gtpsunfire is doing his swap mid december as he stated. id rather pay him some money for a blueprint than buy a mount and create a blueprint from that. i'm doing my swap in april, so I have some time still. Alex, I read your profile and i'm assuming your winter break is in january as you're a student? however, if you can't find someone to get measurements from and have to end up buying a mount, id help out some in return for a diagram of the mount. i'm sure a diagram would help many others as well, since TTR is going to stop production of their mount eventually (apparently it's not a popular sell)
Angles and dimensions are critical when making this part, your reference drawing is far from correct. You yet need another offset in there, as you need a tight fit on the frame, without the correct offset, you will force your entire motor to the left or right and axles will not be right, along with the crushing or pulling on the other mounts, and exhaust.
Tape measure mesurments will never get you where you need to be. trust us, we have many hours and proto types involved to get it to what it is. You are over looking the complexity.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, December 03, 2010 3:16 PM
-Aaron
www.TurboTechRacing.com
Performance Parts For Cavalier, Sunfire, Cobalts and More!!!
Turbo Tech Racing wrote:Angles and dimensions are critical when making this part, your reference drawing is far from correct. You yet need another offset in there, as you need a tight fit on the frame, without the correct offset, you will force your entire motor to the left or right and axles will not be right, along with the crushing or pulling on the other mounts, and exhaust.
Tape measure mesurments will never get you where you need to be. trust us, we have many hours and proto types involved to get it to what it is. You are over looking the complexity.
Care to elaborate, or have some clearer pictures for me to look at? I don't see where there is another offset.
Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
Alex Richards wrote:Turbo Tech Racing wrote:Angles and dimensions are critical when making this part, your reference drawing is far from correct. You yet need another offset in there, as you need a tight fit on the frame, without the correct offset, you will force your entire motor to the left or right and axles will not be right, along with the crushing or pulling on the other mounts, and exhaust.
Tape measure mesurments will never get you where you need to be. trust us, we have many hours and proto types involved to get it to what it is. You are over looking the complexity.
Care to elaborate, or have some clearer pictures for me to look at? I don't see where there is another offset.
That is part of the research time we have, if you dont get the angle and offset perfect (within .030") you wont have a correct line up. I dont think you realize that part of the price of the mount is the time we invested to design this. You will spend hours trying to get this perfect. They are precision laser cut and press brake formed parts.
I will be upfront, we will not give you the dimensions/angles or profile, that is something we had to do on our own. Again a tape measure will never get you close enough, and angles must be right on, so it profiles to the frame exactly. There is so much more to this that a "bracket"
-Aaron
www.TurboTechRacing.com
Performance Parts For Cavalier, Sunfire, Cobalts and More!!!
Philly D wrote:All the info I have is in the how to I made. I guess you could build one or cut one off a old car for cheaper but it's not what I'd recommend. It's not much money and saves alot of hassle. Just my .02 tho
Exactly, if a $79 bracket is to much, add up the other $1500+ needed in other parts (Tranny, axles, clutch, flywheel, clutch petal, master cylinder, slave cylinder, clutch bracket/petal, manual shifter/consol, etc)
-Aaron
www.TurboTechRacing.com
Performance Parts For Cavalier, Sunfire, Cobalts and More!!!
Quote:
Tape measure mesurments will never get you where you need to be. trust us, we have many hours and proto types involved to get it to what it is. You are over looking the complexity.
I disagree. Why? I have 6 years of on going research proven this wrong.
FU Tuning
Screaming for Mercy!! wrote:Quote:
Tape measure mesurments will never get you where you need to be. trust us, we have many hours and proto types involved to get it to what it is. You are over looking the complexity.
I disagree. Why? I have 6 years of on going research proven this wrong.
John I am confused here?
In no way can someone with tape measure (ruled, NOT a caliper) measure this accurately enough to provide correct information.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Saturday, December 04, 2010 2:05 PM
-Aaron
www.TurboTechRacing.com
Performance Parts For Cavalier, Sunfire, Cobalts and More!!!
Turbo Tech Racing wrote:Screaming for Mercy!! wrote:Quote:
Tape measure mesurments will never get you where you need to be. trust us, we have many hours and proto types involved to get it to what it is. You are over looking the complexity.
I disagree. Why? I have 6 years of on going research proven this wrong.
John I am confused here?
In no way can someone with tape measure (ruled, NOT a caliper) measure this accurately enough to provide correct information.
Not to downgrade your research but when your talking getting a mount that's good enough that I can fabricate for free (Minus my labor) vs. a pre-made unit that will cost me more than the transmission, console, shifter, clutch master, and clutch pedal assembly combined cost me at the junkyard I would rather put my own labor into it and make a mount for myself. You cant tell me that the overall width of the mount matters that much. Plus you have several variables in the measurements that present a degree of tolerance that is well within the "good enough to get the job done" category. an 1/8" here or there on a fabricated bracket is something you can make up easily by shifting a bolt center here or there or repositioning the mount on the frame rail. When your mounting the trans in the rear mount, leveling it, and then tack welding and double checking measurements on the frame rail, I doubt that any complexity in the mount really matters in the long run.
Having said that I give credit to you and your company for going the extra length to produce a quality, repeatable, fit the first time piece that makes it easy for people who may be less skilled in the fabrication department to do this conversion. I'm not going at this from a production standpoint, therefore a fudge factor here and there is acceptable for me.
Again, not looking for precision measurements here, just need to get an idea so I know which way I'm heading with this piece. A good measurement to have would be bolt center to framerail measurement, and offset measurement for the kink that is on the outside portion of the mount.
Buildin' n' Boostin for 08' - Alex Richards
