What are everyone's opinions? Someone told me the clutch is only there to take the pressure off the engine/tranny and is only needed for 1st and reverse, and someone told me it ruins the syncros, which leads me to another question, how are syncros actually hurt?
I;ve done clutchless shifting before and it's pretty smooth when you get the hang of it, it doesnt feel like its hurting anything...so what you all think?
Have fun with that. I ain't doing it. Mine shifts fine using the clutch.
Labrat
95LsCoupe wrote:What are everyone's opinions? Someone told me the clutch is only there to take the pressure off the engine/tranny and is only needed for 1st and reverse, and someone told me it ruins the syncros, which leads me to another question, how are syncros actually hurt?
I;ve done clutchless shifting before and it's pretty smooth when you get the hang of it, it doesnt feel like its hurting anything...so what you all think?
tach your car out then rip into the next gear without using the clutch, let me know how that goes for you.
the clutch is there to disconnect the engine from the transmission so you can get going in first/ reverse so this is true.
a clutch ruining synchros is backwards... not using the clutch can ruin your synchros.
by not using the clutch, you're relying more heavily on the synchro in order to match the teeth up so you can select and lock the next gear so that it is the one energy is being transferred through.
would I drive regularly without using the clutch? absolutely not.
have I dont it before when my clutch line was leaking or something was wrong with the car? yup.. its a great emergency tactic, but that should be the end of it.
true clutchless shifting requires pretty extensive modification to the transmission... primarily on the synchros. they are removed in favor of dog engagement (aka a dog box).
with a dog box, you can shift by letting off the gas slightly or pump the clutch slightly to release pressure on the dogs and let the shifter rip into the next gear.
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:95LsCoupe wrote:What are everyone's opinions? Someone told me the clutch is only there to take the pressure off the engine/tranny and is only needed for 1st and reverse, and someone told me it ruins the syncros, which leads me to another question, how are syncros actually hurt?
I;ve done clutchless shifting before and it's pretty smooth when you get the hang of it, it doesnt feel like its hurting anything...so what you all think?
tach your car out then rip into the next gear without using the clutch, let me know how that goes for you.
the clutch is there to disconnect the engine from the transmission so you can get going in first/ reverse so this is true.
a clutch ruining synchros is backwards... not using the clutch can ruin your synchros.
by not using the clutch, you're relying more heavily on the synchro in order to match the teeth up so you can select and lock the next gear so that it is the one energy is being transferred through.
would I drive regularly without using the clutch? absolutely not.
have I dont it before when my clutch line was leaking or something was wrong with the car? yup.. its a great emergency tactic, but that should be the end of it.
true clutchless shifting requires pretty extensive modification to the transmission... primarily on the synchros. they are removed in favor of dog engagement (aka a dog box).
with a dog box, you can shift by letting off the gas slightly or pump the clutch slightly to release pressure on the dogs and let the shifter rip into the next gear.
well the way you explained it "ripping" it into and out of gears sounds violent...let off the gas and with a little pressure, it comes out smoothly and matching Rpms goes in smoothly......my dad does this all the time for daily driving and has no problem in his A4.....when i drive his car, high rpms 5000+, 2nd and 4th will grind slightly as it goes in, but daily driving doesn't involve going 5k+ for him...i guess we'll see in the long run although 4th alway did it since he bought it
not being a dick but the clutch is there for a reason, if you werent supposed to have to use the clutch to shift they wouldnt have put it in there.
not worth a new tranny to me. If i had tons of money to throw around with i wouldnt be driving a cavalier neways, last thing you would want to do is ruin your tranny lol.
CAR IS FOR SALE...Saab Kit, GM Reflash, 10 psi
IF you can rev match perfectly, there is no damage at all. Most people aren't that good. I can come close, but I still use the clutch 99% of the time. It is fun to show my friends though.
95LsCoupe wrote:well the way you explained it "ripping" it into and out of gears sounds violent...let off the gas and with a little pressure, it comes out smoothly and matching Rpms goes in smoothly......my dad does this all the time for daily driving and has no problem in his A4.....when i drive his car, high rpms 5000+, 2nd and 4th will grind slightly as it goes in, but daily driving doesn't involve going 5k+ for him...i guess we'll see in the long run although 4th alway did it since he bought it
yes, I know how to clutchless shift, I know what you mean.
what I was trying to point out was if you want to shift like you mean it, in a maximum acceleration situation, clutchless on a synchro'd transmission is way slower than using the clutch.
but allow me to clarify what people may mean by clutchless shifting and wear...
a lot of people say that by not using the clutch to shift during daily driving, you're saving the clutch.
While this may be true, by not using the clutch the synchro has a harder time getting the next gear to lock to the shaft since there is now force on both sides (engine on the input shaft side, and wheels on the output shaft side.. both sides moving = longer for the synchro to lock the next gear).
whereas the synchro can lock the next gear in place faster when the engine is disconnected entirely or if the clutch is slipped (allowing the input shaft side a little bit of movement so that the synchro can lock into place quicker).
It is true, that not slipping the clutch will reduce its wear, but now you are instead putting more stress and wear on your synchros. And the stress/wear transfer from one part to the other is not linear...
the reduction of wear on the clutch will be much much less compared to the increase in wear on the synchros.
synchros are also a much more difficult part to replace.. personally I would much rather use my clutch the way it should be and replace it when I need to instead of requiring the transmission to be taken apart and replace the synchros.
clutchless shifting a synchro'd transmission is an emergency tactic, and a way to show off, nothing more.
well my family, my dad, grandpa, all them feel there is no hard to it...i personally dont do it, i have done it a few times when i get into my lazy moments but not all the time since ill admit, i am not perfect at it and that grind feling/ noise is so embarrassing lol just wanted to get some truth to it
95LsCoupe wrote:well the way you explained it "ripping" it into and out of gears sounds violent...let off the gas and with a little pressure, it comes out smoothly and matching Rpms goes in smoothly......my dad does this all the time for daily driving and has no problem in his A4.....when i drive his car, high rpms 5000+, 2nd and 4th will grind slightly as it goes in, but daily driving doesn't involve going 5k+ for him...i guess we'll see in the long run although 4th alway did it since he bought it
Are you using the clutch for 5000+ rpm shifting and it still grinds into 2nd and 4th? Makes me wonder if that's the case how much wear has been done to the synchros from clutchless shifting.
ohvrolla wrote:95LsCoupe wrote:well the way you explained it "ripping" it into and out of gears sounds violent...let off the gas and with a little pressure, it comes out smoothly and matching Rpms goes in smoothly......my dad does this all the time for daily driving and has no problem in his A4.....when i drive his car, high rpms 5000+, 2nd and 4th will grind slightly as it goes in, but daily driving doesn't involve going 5k+ for him...i guess we'll see in the long run although 4th alway did it since he bought it
Are you using the clutch for 5000+ rpm shifting and it still grinds into 2nd and 4th? Makes me wonder if that's the case how much wear has been done to the synchros from clutchless shifting.
yes even with clutch fully in at the floor it still grinds, but honestly i dont know if that is from no using the clutch....its not a crazy grind, more like a crunch as it goes in if you get what im saying.... and it's only at high rpm shifting fast....if you slowly let it drop in by itself even with clutch, it will not grind...confusing, come drive it and you will understand lol
If i only had a dollar for every "truth" my dad, grandpa, and other older folks had told me about cars in general that turned out to be their, lets just say, very wrong opinion, I'd be stinking rich.
Pj is 100% right, just use your clutch man, or replace your synchros a lot more than the people using the clutch/ transmission properly.
rpm matching is how a good deal of larger trucks are driven. i used it when i used to drive my 24ft box truck with 9spd. only time i used clutch was starting stopping and going in reverse.
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:95LsCoupe wrote:well the way you explained it "ripping" it into and out of gears sounds violent...let off the gas and with a little pressure, it comes out smoothly and matching Rpms goes in smoothly......my dad does this all the time for daily driving and has no problem in his A4.....when i drive his car, high rpms 5000+, 2nd and 4th will grind slightly as it goes in, but daily driving doesn't involve going 5k+ for him...i guess we'll see in the long run although 4th alway did it since he bought it
yes, I know how to clutchless shift, I know what you mean.
what I was trying to point out was if you want to shift like you mean it, in a maximum acceleration situation, clutchless on a synchro'd transmission is way slower than using the clutch.
but allow me to clarify what people may mean by clutchless shifting and wear...
a lot of people say that by not using the clutch to shift during daily driving, you're saving the clutch.
While this may be true, by not using the clutch the synchro has a harder time getting the next gear to lock to the shaft since there is now force on both sides (engine on the input shaft side, and wheels on the output shaft side.. both sides moving = longer for the synchro to lock the next gear).
whereas the synchro can lock the next gear in place faster when the engine is disconnected entirely or if the clutch is slipped (allowing the input shaft side a little bit of movement so that the synchro can lock into place quicker).
It is true, that not slipping the clutch will reduce its wear, but now you are instead putting more stress and wear on your synchros. And the stress/wear transfer from one part to the other is not linear...
the reduction of wear on the clutch will be much much less compared to the increase in wear on the synchros.
synchros are also a much more difficult part to replace.. personally I would much rather use my clutch the way it should be and replace it when I need to instead of requiring the transmission to be taken apart and replace the synchros.
clutchless shifting a synchro'd transmission is an emergency tactic, and a way to show off, nothing more.
^^ he's right or you can find a machinist to do this for you ......
making you or modify you stock slider... and engagement teeth
clutch-less the right way
to be honest id love to see this attempted and work on a cavy
ps sorry for all the pics
^^ if i had a spare Isuzu and the money(idk how it would actually cost) i would attempt it myself
Mike Demo wrote:rpm matching is how a good deal of larger trucks are driven. i used it when i used to drive my 24ft box truck with 9spd. only time i used clutch was starting stopping and going in reverse.
I was under the impression that a lot of those trucks do not have synchronizers. that would require rev matching or double clutching.
you couldnt do it with the engine accelerating you would lift, wait a second and the shifter would become loose as the gate opened. when you would go to put it in the next gear it was a few hundred rpm difference it had to drop then it would slide in. if you missed the opening a blip of throttle opened it again to shift. as mentioned there is probably a difference in hauling truck transmissions and commuter car ones.
Sounds like no synchronizers. just locker rings.
Mike Demo wrote:you couldnt do it with the engine accelerating you would lift, wait a second and the shifter would become loose as the gate opened. when you would go to put it in the next gear it was a few hundred rpm difference it had to drop then it would slide in. if you missed the opening a blip of throttle opened it again to shift. as mentioned there is probably a difference in hauling truck transmissions and commuter car ones.
Thats how it feels when i do it in my cav....although my shift is very stiff even with the clutch, just stiff to move the stick...my dads audi is nice and smooth
and guy with pics (sorry i dont feel like scrolling up for your name<3) i dont know much about trasnmissions to get any info from those pics lol engines i understand alot and can name almost every part to them but transmission im in the blue with internals, i can swap trannys and do clutchs and torque converters but thats about it, i dont even know how to put lsd in, i know what it does but not how to put it in lol
it cool im Jamon aka J&J LD9 or jamking
....... sorry, its kinda hard to explain more so now that i know you dont understand the internals or your tranny but i wouldn't clutch-less shift your unless i had a dog box setup... just because it may work for now on your cavy doesn't mean you should do it. you'll just slowly eat synchros which cost more then a clutch to replace but your dads Audi may have some kind of "electronic or zero lift tech. in his car" dont quote me that
if not well you get the picture.....i hope lol
lol oh well, here's a brain tickler for you guys, you say it stresses the syncros when putting into gear without clutch.....what about just pulling into neutral without clutch, is that bad? sometimes ill be coming to a red light and have lazy moments not wanting to press the clutch just to come into neutral
95LsCoupe wrote:lol oh well, here's a brain tickler for you guys, you say it stresses the syncros when putting into gear without clutch.....what about just pulling into neutral without clutch, is that bad? sometimes ill be coming to a red light and have lazy moments not wanting to press the clutch just to come into neutral
no, the synchros only have to work when going into a gear. if you're coming out of a gear and into neutral, nothing is being used or made to mesh together.
DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) v2.0 wrote:95LsCoupe wrote:lol oh well, here's a brain tickler for you guys, you say it stresses the syncros when putting into gear without clutch.....what about just pulling into neutral without clutch, is that bad? sometimes ill be coming to a red light and have lazy moments not wanting to press the clutch just to come into neutral
no, the synchros only have to work when going into a gear. if you're coming out of a gear and into neutral, nothing is being used or made to mesh together.
so it's perfectly fine to pull out of gear into neutral without clutch?
what about knocking every other tooth off the syncro?
If it takes forever.... I will die trying. Underdog Racing
Well I proved last night in my s10 you can drive 80 miles with quite a bit of stop and go with no clutch. Pj knows lol. Its not fun by any means but it had to be done. All better and have a functioning clutch now.
z yaaaa wrote:what about knocking every other tooth off the syncro?
Greatly reduces synchro life. My brother in-law did it on his dakota and the trans didn't last a whole lot longer after that.
Either shift like you are supposed to or find someone to make you a dog box trans.
