Im looking for our style of crank pickup. Im thinking about switching from my Tec-II to the haltech unit. Ive been told it works with:
Single Pulse per Cycle
Multi-tooth
Nissan Optical
Bosch Motronic
Subaru
Mitsubishi Std
Also box of the boxes can receive signal from Hall Effect Sensors ,Optical Sensors & Inductive Magnetic Reluctors.
If i cant use the stock pickup ill just have to use the tec style toothed ring. Any input is appreciated.
- 97 Z24 Racecar work in progress
- 04 WRX STi
ATR Crew Member
The stock J-body crank sensor is a 2-wire VR (Variable Reluctor) sensor and the reluctor is a 7 notch (6 notch + 1 10° offset notch). A VR sensor IS an inductive magnetic reluctor, so it looks like you should be fine.
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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.
Just cause the sensor works with it doesnt mean the unit can read it. Make sure it can natively read your wheel. Chances are great it wont.
Thats what i figured ill have to call Haltech and see what they say. At least now i can tell them the sensor im workin with. Thanks
- 97 Z24 Racecar work in progress
- 04 WRX STi
ATR Crew Member
you need to make sure it reads a 6+1 inverse trigger wheel......I'd bet that it doesn't. You might be able to use the factory ICM which convert the signal to a straight square wave non-inverted but i still dont think the haltech will read a 6+1. We NEED to get Mr. LD9 to make us a degree crank pulley with a 36-1 trigger wheel pressed on. That would be the next big thing for us in the line of after market tuning. I've made my own but it was a pita. Once we overcome a few more stumbling blocks with aftermarket parts, aftermarket ECUs won't be hard to implement. Just my $0.02
just out of curiosity
does the OHV have the 6+1 wheel as well?
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:just out of curiosity
does the OHV have the 6+1 wheel as well?
I believe all of the GM 4 and 6 cylinders with DIS had the 6 + 1 reluctor (before they introduced the 58x wheel of course). The offset sync notch may be slightly different for each engine though.
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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.
What kind of sensor do you need. I can get you or make you a hall or Magnetic sensor. I design them daily.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
The sensor isn't the issue...its the trigger wheel pattern. All aftermarket ECU's use VR's, which our vehicles use aswell.
I don't know how you set up the Haltech unit, but when you set up Megasquirt on a GM DIS system, you set it up in the same fashion as GM HEI. If it can run GM HEI, it can probably run DIS. But still, it's always best to ask the manufacturer.
All the DIS ignition does is invert the trigger signal and convert it to a standard square wave......thats it. It does other BS like bypass and crap like that but who cares......
The OQ is will the STOCK trigger wheel work with the haltech....its a 6+1 inverted wheel. The answer is "most likely not" - Most after-market ECU's use industry standard 60-2, 36-1, 12-1, ect. wheels. NOT 6+1 inverted, and the chances of one accepting an inverted 6+1, which is what we have, is even less.
The sensor we have is a standard VR type sensor and can be used on any standalone, thats not the problem at all. The problem is the wheel, it will not work with most aftermarket ECUs unless you have the ability to program in a wheel yourself (ie: megasquirt). Otherwise they stick to standards listed above and wont support our wheels.
However Mr LD9 I will most likely get with you about making a sensor for......you know what.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, April 08, 2008 2:55 PM
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:just out of curiosity
does the OHV have the 6+1 wheel as well?
early (pre 94) had a 2x reluctor, the later have the 6 +1.
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Joshua Dearman wrote:All the DIS ignition......
Sorry meant "ICM Module", not "DIS ignition"
Rich Grayo Jr. wrote:DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:just out of curiosity
does the OHV have the 6+1 wheel as well?
early (pre 94) had a 2x reluctor, the later have the 6 +1.
No GM 4cyl with a DIS system has ever had a 2x reluctor.
All are 7x.
Its obvious if you look at it why 2x is wrong.
The # of pulses has to be odd to account for the "skip pulse" that will indicate TDC for 1&4. Without it, the Module could never figure out which coil to fire for 1&4 or 2&3.
Only distributor based system can have a "2x" type signal because the rotor directs the spark to the correct cylinder no matter what.
sig not found
Looky here.
6+1 wheel.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
^Those are great for using a stock ECU with an aftermarket crank that doesn't have the reluctor on it but the format of the 6+1 is not a standard wheel in the after-market ECU market. Same problems still apply to OP.
Joshua Dearman wrote:^Those are great for using a stock ECU with an after market crank that doesn't have the reluctor on it but the format of the 6+1 is not a standard wheel in the after-market ECU market. Same problems still apply to OP.
Agreed
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
protomec wrote:Rich Grayo Jr. wrote:DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:just out of curiosity
does the OHV have the 6+1 wheel as well?
early (pre 94) had a 2x reluctor, the later have the 6 +1.
No GM 4cyl with a DIS system has ever had a 2x reluctor.
All are 7x.
Its obvious if you look at it why 2x is wrong.
The # of pulses has to be odd to account for the "skip pulse" that will indicate TDC for 1&4. Without it, the Module could never figure out which coil to fire for 1&4 or 2&3.
Only distributor based system can have a "2x" type signal because the rotor directs the spark to the correct cylinder no matter what.
really? strange, my 89 2.0 had 2 notches.
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protomec wrote:Rich Grayo Jr. wrote:protomec wrote:Rich Grayo Jr. wrote:DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:just out of curiosity
does the OHV have the 6+1 wheel as well?
early (pre 94) had a 2x reluctor, the later have the 6 +1.
No GM 4cyl with a DIS system has ever had a 2x reluctor.
All are 7x.
Its obvious if you look at it why 2x is wrong.
The # of pulses has to be odd to account for the "skip pulse" that will indicate TDC for 1&4. Without it, the Module could never figure out which coil to fire for 1&4 or 2&3.
Only distributor based system can have a "2x" type signal because the rotor directs the spark to the correct cylinder no matter what.
really? strange, my 89 2.0 had 2 notches.
No, it didn't.
You are mistaken.
my apologies. i just re-read the manual. it does have a 7 notch reluctor. but:
teh book wrote:the CKP sensor, ICM, or DIS ignition module sends reference signals to the computer control module (ECM/PCM), based based on the CKP pulses which are used to determine crankshaft position and engine speed. Reference pulses occur at a rate of 1 per 180* of crankshaft rotation for vehicles through 1993, or 7 per 360* of crankshaft rotation for 1994 vehicles. this signal is called the 2X or 7X reference because it occurs 2 or 7 times per crankshaft revolution, depending on the year of your vehicle. for 1994 vehicles, the 7x reference signal is necessary for the PCM to determine when to activate the fuel injectors.
so, after a quick refresher, it did have 7 notches, but when the ignition module reads the 7 notches in 1993- cars, it only sends 2 signals to the pcm...
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^^^ Right, but your 7 notches are spaced a certain way. You have 6 of them evenly spaced every 60 degrees. So the ICM knows to skip pulses to get that signal every 180 degrees. The 7th notch is 10* away from the 1st notch and lets the ICM know to start it's firing order over.
can't you just tap into the cps circuit to determine cyl-1 firing? or does it not offer that level of granularity?
-Chris
IamRascal wrote:can't you just tap into the cps circuit to determine cyl-1 firing? or does it not offer that level of granularity?
By CPS, I'm assuming you mean "cam position sensor" and not " crank position sensor", right? There are a couple problems with that.
1) There is no way to escape the fact that the J-body Reluctor wheel has 7 notches, unless you go to an external wheel. So, the computer still has to interpret the offset sync notch to let the computer know that the next notch is the cylinder #1 and #4 firing notch, otherwise, because the ECM reads every third notch, your timing will progressively be advanced for every crank rotation (i.e. 1 & 4 fire 10* early on sync notch, then 2&3 fire 60* before they should, then 1&4 fire 60* before they should, then 2&3 fire 120* before they should, etc, etc.).
and
2) All the CPS would do is add redundancy in a wasted Spark ignition. Because you have to decode the crank reluctor wheel anyways, all the cps would tell you is that cylinder #1 is ready to fire... but to know that is pointless when cylinders 1&4 always fire together regardless of which cylinder is REALLY firing. It would only be useful to know the Cam position for ignition with something like a COP setup.
Also, I'm pretty sure the Haltech ECM's aren't open source anyways, so unless they have a code to support the Cam position sensor to be used for ignition purposes (like COP), you would either have to build your own circuit to decode the Cam position sensor to determine cylinder firing, or you are SOL.
^Yes, cam positioning sensors only exist to know when the intake valves open, thats why you need it to run COP or EFI. Also keep in mind our CPS toggles twice every rotation at 180degree offset with 180degree phasing(on for 180degrees -- off for 180 degrees) which is not industry standard aswell. Typically the good after market ECUs only used the transition point so the factory could work given the right software abilities. Some other ECUs look for a quick differential high then low with like a 10deg. duration in which case the factory CPS wont work. IIRC theres only one name brand ECU that "requires" a short duration cps pulse and I can't remember off the top of my head. (I want to say MSD).....but could be wrong.
Joshua Dearman wrote:^Yes, cam positioning sensors only exist to know when the intake valves open, thats why you need it to run COP or EFI. Also keep in mind our CPS toggles twice every rotation at 180degree offset with 180degree phasing(on for 180degrees -- off for 180 degrees) which is not industry standard aswell. Typically the good after market ECUs only used the transition point so the factory could work given the right software abilities. Some other ECUs look for a quick differential high then low with like a 10deg. duration in which case the factory CPS wont work. IIRC theres only one name brand ECU that "requires" a short duration cps pulse and I can't remember off the top of my head. (I want to say MSD).....but could be wrong.
I'm sure you meant SFI (Sequential Fuel Injection), right? Saying you need a cam position sensor for Electric fuel Injection is just plain silly
