I searched for spectre and found nothing, i was going to PM pj but i figured i may get some more input by posting my question.
I am debating on a tuning solution for next racing season. Spectre EMS or HP Tuners. The thing is, I'm not too savvy with wiring. Ya i can plug stuff in and do some minor electrical work like hooking up gauges and soldering, but as to the knowledge of which wire is what and what to splice ... no clue.
So i read the installation manual for the spectre ems:
Quote:
1. Before you begin
The Spectre eMS-Pro is a universal electronic fuel injection controller that can be made to work on any spark ignition internal
combustion engine, with the right external parts. However, the success of your installation depends on YOU. In order to make the
eMS-Pro work on YOUR engine, you will need:
• Additional parts to suit your installation, including:
o Coolant and air temperature sensors (GM type) P/N 7142
o Oxygen sensor and bung is highly recommended (either narrow-band or wide-band) P/N 7144
o Wiring and various connectors for the sensors, injectors, etc. P/N 7143
o Injectors and bungs/manifold
o Throttle body
o High pressure fuel pump and supply/return lines
o Fuel pressure regulator
• Knowledge and skills to install all of the necessary sensors and wiring
o Basic use of voltmeter (measurement of resistance [ohms], DC voltage, and continuity)
o Understanding of basic electrical/electronics wiring principles, ability to make solder or crimp joints that are reliable
and safe
• Knowledge and experience to be able to install or adapt a complete high-pressure fuel system in your vehicle for the eMS-Pro
• Windows 98 (or better) laptop computer with a USB or Serial port to configure and tune your eMS-Pro
• Enough mechanical aptitude to know how much fuel, and what ignition timing, the engine needs to run properly
Installing the eMS-Pro in a vehicle that already has EFI means you will need to consider how you will run the ignition and any other
devices the OEM ECU controls [such as the transmission, speedometer and other gauges, and emissions devices], how you will
interface the eMS-Pro to your existing wiring harness, and whether you can reuse your existing temperature and position sensors. The
eMS-Pro does NOT control electronic transmissions; however, it does have up to 4 spare outputs to control automotive relays.
now would i need the 2 sensors from that list? i have a wideband, the fuel rail as a fpr.. so basically lets just say i have a cavalier with the m62 kit on it with a wideband. what extra stuff would i need to get and install if i were to go this route? Also, at the bottom it says i would need to consider how i would run the ignition and any other things such as the speedo the ECU controls.. this i would have no clue on. but if i let the stock ECU control the speedo and such, im assuming i would still have the speed limiter (trapping at 100 so i only have 8mph left to go, thinking to the future, that may be a problem.)
overall this route looks complicated for me, i would need some serious education on how this stuff works and would more than likely need aid in installation.
Now with HP Tuners, i have tuned with it before when i my car N/A with the guidance of tom (wrench monkey). I have some experience with it, i am familiar with its interface, and hell, it just plugs right in. the only things i DONT know is what extra things i would need to use it to tune for the m62. Would i need a 2 or 2.5 bar sensor plugged into a vaccum line or should i just use the stock 1 bar? also where would that sensor be wired in? do i disconnect the TMAP and wire it back into that wiring location? (new harness wouldnt hurt for that i suppose). Any other extras for that?
For me after reading that install manual a few times.. i think HPT may be the better route, but that EMS may be able to do more than the stock programming on the stock ecu could do.. but then again i would probably have to ask myself if im going to go further than that programming can.. which i might but more than likely may not since its the only car i have and i cant exactly leave it sitting in a garage while i mess with it..
i may have answered my own question, but what i am asking is what extra stuff would i need and need to install for each to function? if the EMS isnt as complicated as im making it out to be, that could be a good way to go..
sorry if its all jumbled.. kinda early.. still tired lol..
thanks for your time, hopefully ill get some good info from you all. thanks.
12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
Spectra is basically MS-II with all the extra bells and whistles and is set up for the Extra code. It also has a more automotive friendly harness plug.
Spectra EMS
The lucky thing for us GM guys, though, is that the technology is heavily based around our sensors, so there is no need to swap sensors. There is even control for the GM IAC stepper motor. There are several choices for doing ignition control with megasquirt technology. Plenty of people have converted to coil-on-plug, which is something you simply can't do with HPT. For the more electrically capable people, you could even design a small external circuit to run sequential fire 100% of the time, giving you complete control over every cylinder, which is important to race teams because each cylinder flows differently ...again, something HPT can't do. Also, if you have the standalone controling both fuel and spark, there is nothing the J-body computer can do to keep you from going over 108 mph. However, the problem with a standalone is that it is illegal for street use, as it bypasses all of the emissions control a factory PCM has built in. If you are driving this car on the road and seriously worried about getting pulled over and an officer finding it, I would highly recommend HPTuners.
I have no signiture
^^^^ I should have been a little more clear. By "Sequential Fire" I was refering to fuel delivery and not ignition control. Sorry.
I have no signiture
not worried about getting pulled over lol, but thanks for the input. i was looking at the unit and didnt see too much of the harness, is it just plug and play or does that also need to be spliced into the current harness? ahh yea good point about the 108mph, it was early so i wasnt thinkin too good lol.. i was just inquiring about that because if i do end up trying out some nitrous, that was a problem i foresaw, spraying and hitting the limiter cutting spark and then maybe something bad happening.. thanks for the info so far, anyone else got some input on this? thanks
12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
You would still have to splice the sensors into the Spectre harness. What I meant by "automotive friendly harness" is that I believe it uses a weather proof connector like a stock PCM. The normal MS-II box uses a metal DB37 connector that I wouldn't trust anywhere but inside the cabin of the car.
I also forgot to mention that megasquirt Extra code can do other things like boost control, nitrous control, staged fuel injection, wideband contorlled closed loop operation, among numerous other little things as well.
I have no signiture
you could use the spectre to control just fuel, just like MS. You need to run a duplicate ECT sensor though.. you can't piggyback off the stock ECT sensor (something with feedback from the stock ecu.. a friend who had MS on his turbo cav had this problem)
if you wanted to give it a bit more control, its a bit more of a pain.. and you sacrifice a lot to gain tuning control.
HPT doesn't compare in the least.. but with the spectre there's a lot less user friendliness.. but you have a lot more flexibility.
if you want the install .pdf files drop me a PM
Quote:
You need to run a duplicate ECT sensor though.. you can't piggyback off the stock ECT sensor (something with feedback from the stock ecu.. a friend who had MS on his turbo cav had this problem)
Or you could just get a 3 wire CTS. Instead of having to tap a hole for another sensor. The install instructions look like you'll be wanting extra wiring and plugs anyways, so what's an extra TPS connector gonna hurt? You can run both ECU's off of one sensor ONLY if you use the 3wire.
SHOoff (Tuner Bash Beer God) wrote:Quote:
You need to run a duplicate ECT sensor though.. you can't piggyback off the stock ECT sensor (something with feedback from the stock ecu.. a friend who had MS on his turbo cav had this problem)
Or you could just get a 3 wire CTS. Instead of having to tap a hole for another sensor. The install instructions look like you'll be wanting extra wiring and plugs anyways, so what's an extra TPS connector gonna hurt? You can run both ECU's off of one sensor ONLY if you use the 3wire.
What is this 3 wire CTS you speak of?
Mike
thanks pj, i downloaded the pdf files a while ago, i was reading the install manual and starting rethinking what i wanted to do.. thanks all for the input, keep it coming if possible
12.33 @ 111.67 mph [Oct 2009]
Dyno'd on 08/02/09 - Mustang Dyno:
327.6 WHP 333.6 WTQ [10.1 AFR]
I feel if you aren't doing an all out build like airtonics did then hpt is the way to go. Even airtonics did a full build and is still using hpt.
Your running a 3.0 pulley correct? If you plan on staying blown and not going over the top just want to tune out your 3.0 pulley then save yourself the headaches and go with hpt.
Just use the new MS sequencer...its the MS II, which you could throw on extra code, + the long awaited router board for full sequential and COP for up to 8 cylinders. No word YET, but I'm sure a new "extra" code will come out soon enough to also use the 4 spark outputs on the MSII for other uses too(when the router "add-on" board drops for the MS II's)....say hello to (all at the same time) dual stage nitrous, launch control, boost controller, water injection, ect....
Totally worth the time spent.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, January 16, 2009 7:25 PM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
^Actually the "sequencer" is really the microsquirt with the add-on router board but the micro is based after the MS II and soon B&G will be releasing the Router daughter board to slide into the MS II's case and run just like a sequencer while taking advantage of the initial investment of the MS II without having to ditch the relatively new ECU if all you wanted additional to it is SFI(for over two cylinders) and/or COP(for over 4 cylinders).
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
m dailey wrote:SHOoff (Tuner Bash Beer God) wrote:Quote:
You need to run a duplicate ECT sensor though.. you can't piggyback off the stock ECT sensor (something with feedback from the stock ecu.. a friend who had MS on his turbo cav had this problem)
Or you could just get a 3 wire CTS. Instead of having to tap a hole for another sensor. The install instructions look like you'll be wanting extra wiring and plugs anyways, so what's an extra TPS connector gonna hurt? You can run both ECU's off of one sensor ONLY if you use the 3wire.
What is this 3 wire CTS you speak of?
Mike
I'm not sure of the exact PN for it. But I know it's from a 93 Cavalier, with the 2.2 engine.
It has 2 outputs, which allows you to run a gauge and a computer or in my case, 2 computers off of 1 sensor.
Joshua Dearman wrote:^Actually the "sequencer" is really the microsquirt with the add-on router board but the micro is based after the MS II and soon B&G will be releasing the Router daughter board to slide into the MS II's case and run just like a sequencer while taking advantage of the initial investment of the MS II without having to ditch the relatively new ECU if all you wanted additional to it is SFI(for over two cylinders) and/or COP(for over 4 cylinders).
Do you know how close they are to releasing it? ....because they have been "close" for a couple years at least.
I have no signiture
They actually have the sequencer out in Beta.....<-which has and is running the router board via CANBUS but its all on board. Now, who is going to build the daughter card for the MSII's (B&G or 3rd party)...I dont know yet, I guess that depends on B&G. But it will be out in the market this year for sure as a MSII add-on. Actually the components of the router board have been readily available for several years now, it was the CAN code that was holding it all up. B&G had better things to do and nobody else wanted to tackle the code themselves. So now that B&G FINALLY got around to writing the code, it should happen pretty quick. The sequencer is actually a microsquirt + router and the microsquirt ran the same code as the MSII(aside form the ignition triggers being opposite so you had to oppose your firing trigger). I dont see why somebody couldn't just grab the build guide for the router board put it together with flying wires(for the CANBUS) on their MSII and load up the firmware from the sequencer. I don't see a reason why that wouldn't work.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
If the spectra can decode our crank reluctor ring we should be able to get rid of the ICM. If i am reading the directions correctly you can connect ignition outputs A and B to a MSD 6212 box and use that to drive the coils. Maybe i am wrong though. Still trying to figure out this stuff for next winters project
Straight from the horses mouth that its out in Beta:
MS EFI Forums wrote:Re: MS-II Sequencer for sequential/COP
New post by grippo on Wed Jan 21, 2009 8:17 am
I mailed out 3 beta test units yesterday. These are to people who have cars up and running on MS. As soon as we get some positive test results, we can make more units available.
jmarks82 wrote:If the spectra can decode our crank reluctor ring we should be able to get rid of the ICM. If i am reading the directions correctly you can connect ignition outputs A and B to a MSD 6212 box and use that to drive the coils. Maybe i am wrong though. Still trying to figure out this stuff for next winters project
The spectra is just a fancy megasquirt and no it can't natively decode the 7X reluctor wheel. You still need a ICM but ONLY the ICM from an OBDI Q4 that has the bypass function for the ignition. Basically you will have to let the ICM decode the wheel and let the ICM talk to the MS or Spectra which will then relay the information into a square wave format which the reluctor on the crank isn't and thats the whole problem.
And yes, once you get the ICM to talk to the MS or Spectra using the GM DIS ignition setup you can just run the triggers straight into the MSD DIS unit to fire the coils just like the factory ICM. I'm still using my DIS-II for my COP
...LOL.(Will someday switch to a DIS 4)..took awhile to figure out how to do it but it works great, for a stock motor at least. On paper the DIS 2, when running 4 cyl COP, can only do 7k rpm which I havn't really tried to go past yet. But its a great setup and real easy on the MS since the heat generation is soooo much less when running a CDI coil ignitor instead of having the VB921's (or whatever the new replacement is) to actually dwell the coils. It will also make them last longer since I havn't had a 921 fail yet...lol.
I have also made up a 36-1 EDIS trigger wheel since I went with COP and ditched the ICM entirly since the MS or spectra can fully decode those wheels natively. I still dont have sequential yet since the router board is still in development so I'm still running batch, but soon that will change. Not really any point but I will because I can.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
be prepared to do a lot of wiring with the spectre.... remember the factory engine harness connects with the body harness... so all your switches will have to be hard wired back in. Its a lot of work but it simplifys the whole operation of the motor and gives you more control over it then hptuners ever could... spectre is pretty much for the die hard people that will do whatever it takes to control there car down to the dime.
I would like to ditch the icm so i may be looking in to switching to a 31-1 EDIS trigger wheel. Is just simplifies everything. Thanks for your help.
It's a 36-1 wheel, but really are square tooth wheel up to a 60-2 will work fine for up to 9k rpm.
This is what I did to mount mine.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
so whats the better fail safe route, if you wire the ems pro up to use the signal from the stock 2.4 crank you have to run the icm so it converts it to the right wave for the ems pro? or run the with the EDIS wheel(dont know what that is but looks like ill be busy on google tonight). few other questions, if you do run the edis wheel then you dont have to worry about the factory crank sensor. also do you/sudgest running wiring up the cam sensor? hoping in the next month and half to be installing the ems pro just want to know the best route to go about wiring.
R.I.P. Brian Klocke, you will never be forgotten
Quote:
also do you/sudgest running wiring up the cam sensor? hoping in the next month and half to be installing the ems pro just want to know the best route to go about wiring.
You won't be hooking up withe cam sensor with any of the MS stuff. It doesn't use it. You also don't get SFI either.
brandon,
I'm pretty sure the spectre has native 6+1 trigger control
the spectre also supports both hall effect and VR sensors.. so you can use stock just by flicking the dip switch.
I wouldn't worry about the cam sensor. I don't plan on using it on the skwirl (especially since I don't really have the option). You don't really need it.
the only 'what if' is the highest maximum rpm you can spin with a given wheel. I have an email from diyautotune on the subject:
Spectre Email with Matt @ DIYautotune wrote:
Paul Lombard Jr wrote:
> Matt a few more questions:
>
> I'm planning on spinning some serious RPM with this thing, looking at a 9500rpm rev limiter with a 60-2 wheel.. is there going to be issues with the spectre not being able to charge fast enough and hitting 'loss of synchronization' problems?
>
> I'm finding it very difficult to locate any spectre-specific information on the web and the megasquirt issues I'm hoping aren't inherit in the spectre-eMS version.
>
> also, is the spectre compatible with the hi-res version of MSextra? can I use any of the MS1 firmware with the spectre box?
>
>
> -Paul
Hi Paul,
One tip we've seen is that on high winding engines with large numbers of
trigger teeth, you will get better results if you put a 10K to 20K
resistor inline with the crankshaft position sensor wire. We've seen
this unit (and its Megasquirt-I V3.57 cousin) used on some pretty high
winding BMWs with this setup. The charging will depend on what ignition
you're using. You may also need to open the case and adjust the VR
circuit trim pots.
And yes, the eMS-Pro can run high res code or any other MS1 firmware
variant.
Thanks,
Matt Cramer
DIYAutotune.com Technical Support
Please quote your previous emails when you reply, as this will help me look up what we have been discussing and respond to you faster.
Boosted2point4 wrote:so whats the better fail safe route, if you wire the ems pro up to use the signal from the stock 2.4 crank you have to run the icm so it converts it to the right wave for the ems pro? or run the with the EDIS wheel(dont know what that is but looks like ill be busy on google tonight). few other questions, if you do run the edis wheel then you dont have to worry about the factory crank sensor. also do you/sudgest running wiring up the cam sensor? hoping in the next month and half to be installing the ems pro just want to know the best route to go about wiring.
^your on the right track. You have to have the older Quad 4 ICM to convert the 7x wheel on the crank to a standard wave form for the MS or spectra(which from now on I will be calling MS for ease). Second do not think you have to run a "EDIS" wheel, its just a wheel at the end of the day, you can run any wheel you like. The more points the better resolution but past 36 teeth your really just spinning your tires and wasting ECU clock time honestly...thats why its such a popular wheel. It saves CPU to do other things but yet high enough resolution to get the job done well. Another good option is the 60-2, which is great for a V8 as there are more harmonics at play on the crank and can benefit from the added resolution but it is far from really required in even tough engine configurations. If you want to get rid of the ICM altogether then you have to use a "native supported" trigger wheel in the MS which there are many, the EDIS(ie: 36-1) is the most popular option and easiest to get your hands on is different sizes and thicknesses.
As far as the cam trigger, you need it only if your going to run COP/SFI, which SFI isn't currently on the list of possibilities YET. The router is the deal breaker on that one, which is almost out and that will change. Anyway, you "can" use the stock cam sensor but honestly it's much easier to drop a single tooth wheel on.....basically just a magnet to slap on(when using a hall sensor) or drill a hole and reverse the trigger polarity to read the absence of material as a tooth....or a bias transistor setup and read the absence as absence. I plan on running 2.3L cams which is where the PS pulley is going to come in handy, just drill a hole in the pulley.
As far as using the stock cam sensor, I'm not 100% sure if that is possible because the trigger is not use to actually get a exact degreee timing on the crank, rather it is ONLY used to identify the certain cylinder at a known position. I think the stock pad is too wide and would need to be cut down...maybe.....or maybe the MS doesn't need to see the falling edge and just the rising edge of the trigger to get the information needed. I know the crank trigger needs to see both sides but I'd imagine it's possible to only care about the rising edge for the cam position. That's a great question you could raise or search for on the MS forums.
SHOoff (Tuner Bash Beer God) wrote:Quote:
also do you/sudgest running wiring up the cam sensor? hoping in the next month and half to be installing the ems pro just want to know the best route to go about wiring.
You won't be hooking up withe cam sensor with any of the MS stuff. It doesn't use it. You also don't get SFI either.
Yes, it does, MS-I/Extra and up do support the cam trigger input and do use it for COP +SFI in the near future.
Feature Comparison
hmmm....PID tuned Boost control. Works badas$ on my test bench.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
I'm pretty sure the spectre has native 6+1 trigger control
It sucks but the Spectra doesn't, however the MSII actually can I guess if you use an LM1815 to correct the signal.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
the spectre also supports both hall effect and VR sensors.. so you can use stock just by flicking the dip switch.
Yup, all MS's support both types of sensors.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
I wouldn't worry about the cam sensor. I don't plan on using it on the skwirl (especially since I don't really have the option). You don't really need it.
You will need it if you run out of dwell time since COP doubles the amount of time your coils have to charge since they fire 50% as much as on a DIS setup.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edited Thursday, January 22, 2009 5:15 PM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
Also PJ, the 36-1 is good for around 9k and the 60-2 is less if that answers anything(without input resistance modification). Also, dont put in a resistor inline...use a 100k pot inline...that way you can adjust it without busting out the soldering iron everytime. Just some helpful hints from my experience.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
