Tuning for cams and general fuel map question. - Tuning Forum

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Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:18 PM
I have a very basic understanding of ow a computer in a car controls everything.... but I really know nothing about tuning atm.

My car has a 2.4 (5-speed) with a cool air intake, secret cams, and full exaust with a header atm (complete mod list is in profile)

The car runs fine on the stock tune but I know it should really be tuned for what is done to it.

I'm wondering how much of a difference I would see if the car was tuned correctly...

Another thing I've been wondering about.

My understanding is that the ECM has a preset group of variables that it goes by and regardless of the mods done to the car... if you have a stock tune the car only adjust itself as if the car where stock..... and that the computer doesnt actually learn anything much more than not to advance the timing any further by listing to the knock sensor and slightly moving between fuel ratios.

So how can having secret cams make more power if the computer doesnt know there there? You would think that the car just wouldn't run right. Does the ECM just see a leaner AFR from the increased air flow and enrich it to the best of its abilities or what?

How far can the computer really "adjust itself" to mods.






Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:15 AM
Also been wondering this

Hopefully someone chimes in with some good insight



Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Wednesday, May 20, 2009 2:07 PM
When my car was N/A with almost same mods. Tunning made a big difference in drive ability, never got to dyno it to see where it sat from the previous dyno on a stock tune.

The ECU in our cars has preset tables for fueling and timing that it uses once the car goes into open loop or Power Enrichment (PE). The car is in open loop when you start it cold while it warms up and the O2 sensor warms up. Some CEL's will put the car into open loop. The car will go into to PE when certain RPM's, and TPS is reached.

Hope this helps a little.



FU Tuning



Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Wednesday, May 20, 2009 11:19 PM
I understand Open an closed loop..... Im a certified mechanic

Im just wondering about how well a stock tune can handle significant mods.... If it runs on preset tables (designed for a stock engine) and you significantly modify the car (enough that a re tune should be done) my understanding is that the car would still run on the stock tables injecting the amount of fuel required for the stock cams (or whatever mod in question) even though you have increased airflow and different valve lift and durations. Which would make me think you would see a decrease in performance instead of an increase.... but for example.... in case of the secret cams... you see an increase...

Does the ECM pull readings from the MAP and O2.... see the difference.... and make up for it by adjusting the fuel cells the best it can to reach it's target AFR?

Obviously any extreme modifications would be beyond the ECM's adjustment parameters.. and you would have to flash the ECM with tuning software.... Im just wondering if the stock programming really has the ability to adjust its programming to a point to adapt to mods like people think it can, or if you just..... in reality are driving a car that is correcting itself constantly to make up for the change. IE.... the car is running on its stock fuel cells..... gets info back from the sensors telling it that it not right (because you have cams or whatever) and it bumps up the injectors until is gets the reading it is supposed to see and stays in this cycle but the fuel tabels (or cells) stay the same...

If that makes any sense....

And thanks... I was wondering if it would be worth tunning the car with the mods I have.. the "big difference in drivability seems like a reason too.







Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Thursday, May 21, 2009 3:52 AM
Going based off what we can see no the ECU does not adjust for the mods and airflow changes. Going based off how we know things work in most ECU's, and that we think there is tables we can not see. Yes it does make some changes, but probably not enough. It appears there is some tables we can't see in our ECU's.

I so wish I had dynoed my car with my N/A tune. Last time it dynoed it put down 151 with a stock tune. Would have liked to seen the difference tuning made.



FU Tuning



Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Thursday, May 21, 2009 8:00 AM
The engine won't change squat for VE, really. It has no idea you are flowing more air because we do not have a MAF sensor... so you'll have to tune for that. Same with cams, etc... it doesn't know you have a longer or shorter duration cam so it won't know to fire the spark plug earlier or later than what was programmed stock. LTFT's and STFT's can only do so much but really they are concerned with fuel economy and emissions, not power.

Bear in mind that stock was tuned with the primary purpose of passing Emissions, secondary purpose of reliability, and somewhere down the line at 3rd - power.

There is a lot left in there, surprisingly.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Thursday, May 21, 2009 10:47 PM
So in other words... theres really no way that im going to be able to find this out unless I pick up HPtuners so I can actually see what is going on in there and figure it out for myself.

I have been wondering something..... How good a manual does HP Tuners come with? Is it introductory and intuitive enough? and does it explain how to do things well enough that you can take what you read in the book, then do some data logging... then figure out whats going on, how to read things.... and how to tune on your own? Or is there another book you should buy?

It will be a little down the road since I just put a large chunk of cash into the car but when I get to this step.... I want do make sure I know what im doing...


thanks.







Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Friday, May 22, 2009 9:37 AM
Weebel wrote:So in other words... theres really no way that im going to be able to find this out unless I pick up HPtuners so I can actually see what is going on in there and figure it out for myself.

I have been wondering something..... How good a manual does HP Tuners come with? Is it introductory and intuitive enough? and does it explain how to do things well enough that you can take what you read in the book, then do some data logging... then figure out whats going on, how to read things.... and how to tune on your own? Or is there another book you should buy?

It will be a little down the road since I just put a large chunk of cash into the car but when I get to this step.... I want do make sure I know what im doing...


thanks.


x2
Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Friday, May 22, 2009 12:44 PM
HPT has decent help files, but not really going to tell you what to do. You have to have a idea of what needs to do. I first started by reading on here, using shifted's tuning FAQ, and reading on HPT forums. Also spent alot of time exploring the HPT files. I then got a book to read which helped alot. Can't think of the name right now will post it later, but it was recommended by many on here.



FU Tuning



Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Friday, May 22, 2009 4:27 PM
HPT has great help files if you're a V8, but not so much for us.


some insight into the workings of the ecu and maximizing mechanical modifications;

the ecu is programmed to work with the stock components.
every car (as well as its environment.. elevation, avg temp, etc) is different. so a generic tune is designed to get the job done as close to 100% of the time as possible.
this is why if you tune even a stock car, you can see gains out of it because you're tailoring the tune to your specific vehicle and location.

when you change something mechanically, you're doing what old modifiers and hot rodders in the past used to do.
the design of engines hasn't changed much in the past 100 years, and nothing can stop those mechanical principals from having some effect on power output.. even if the computer doesn't compensate.

for example; changing your cam profile will still help to optimize scavenging and cylinder filling.
Not touching the stock computer can't stop the mechanical principal a high performance cam works on, which is why you still see a gain even though you haven't tuned.

However, when you tune, you will maximize the modification by telling the computer what has changed.

MAF setups use a meter to physically 'count' air that enters the engine. So if you increase airflow (cams, headwork, turbo, supercharger, etc) the MAF will compensate (TO AN EXTENT) by telling the ecu more air is coming in.

Our setups cannot do that.

Most all motor modifications cannot significantly alter the stock VE maps to cause problems.. which is why tuning was so delayed around here and only became imperative after HPT came out and people started to realize the importance of tuning.

With a turbo or a supercharger, tuning is imperative.

for an n/a car, tuning isn't as important, but without it you may be missing out on something like 15% of the power you COULD have if not more.

don't be surprised if you need to upgrade your injectors to a larger size or do a bit of fuel tweaks to get your AFR where it should be.

but back to the ecu..

our ecu's do not change for airflow. they have their map based on TPS and RPM and thats it. The only thing the ecu decides to do is turn fuel trims on (closed loop.. cruise) or turn them off (power enrichment). It also shuts the injectors off when you're in gear and slowing down (Deceleration Fuel Cut Off - DFCO). There's other multipliers that are applied in certain instances, but nothing that can compensate for modifications so we'll ignore that information for now.

in terms of spark advance, those tables are preset too. However, the computer has two MAP ranges for ignition tables. And for each of those ranges is two tables.. one for higher octane, and one for lower octane. How the engine interpolates between the two I'm not sure, but if you knock a certain amount of times, the computer will lean towards the lower octane table and if you get no knock counts, the table will lean towards the higher side... which is how you can put different grades of fuel in the car and it won't alter how it runs too much because it adjusts the timing accordingly.

tuning is always something important, just not as critical for an all motor car (unless you go totally nuts)
anytime you alter the amount of air that can enter/exit an engine (basically any worthwhile mod), you should have the computer tuned to optimize the change.

I think people would be a lot happier with intake and exhaust systems if they went through the trouble of tuning the VE maps to reflect the change.
Cams and/or headwork should ESPECIALLY be on the list for tuning because while the car will still run, you'll see a big gain with tuning.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, May 22, 2009 6:38 PM


Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Saturday, May 23, 2009 12:39 AM
Thanks PJ thats helpful and I understood it.

I quess the hard part is learning what to look for... and knowing where it should be.... then figuring out how to move in that direction. When using the software.

If fuel is TPS vs RPM then what is the MAP sensor for on the car?

I am curious how much the car can really adjust itself by going off the O2 (or if it does at all)

I know there are also settings for sudden changes in throttle also.... (kinda like an accelerator pump on a carb)

I know that you need a Wideband.... but do you really need an Exhaust gas temp probe?

The thing is that when I get to doing this.... it's going to be from all on road data logging.... since chassis dynos are non existent here.. I might have to wait to mess with the full throttle stuff until I can hit up a drag strip.


But at least I understand the Stock computer VS mod part now.

Thanks..






Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Saturday, May 23, 2009 5:52 AM
Quote:

If fuel is TPS vs RPM then what is the MAP sensor for on the car?


In the N/A ECU map is for Timing, but also fueling at idle.

Quote:

I am curious how much the car can really adjust itself by going off the O2 (or if it does at all)


It can, but only if it is off by a small amount. A narrowband O2 sensor is only accurate in a very small range.



FU Tuning



Re: Tuning for cams and general fuel map question.
Saturday, May 23, 2009 10:03 PM
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:HPT has great help files if you're a V8, but not so much for us.


some insight into the workings of the ecu and maximizing mechanical modifications.



Very insightful!!!


I am saving up for the HP tuners as my next upgrade. Just reading ALOT before i make the purchase, but i can't wait to see the difference with my current mods.

--- intake, header and exhaust.
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