I know both systems have their own pros and cons. Im looking for some insight from people that have used both programs.
I have a 99 Z24 with the LD9. PLans for it are boost, most likely turbo but S/C is a thought as well.
It will be a DD so I need something fairly reliable.
Ive tuned DSmap on my Talon before which is all VE tuning like HPT. Ive never playe with megasquirt but it seems a lot of people are using it with good results.
I live in AZ and do need to pass an OBD2 test everyother year, I know I can with HPT how about MS since it replaces the ECU?
Price wise I know they are fairly close.
I dont plan on going too crazy with the car. Im personally leaning towards HPT so multiple cars can be done.
Thanks in advance for the help,
Thomas
"Oil Leak ? What oil Leak ? Oh, Thats Just The Sweat From All The HorsePower!!"
ill sell ya a ms2........
R.I.P. Brian Klocke, you will never be forgotten
You could always try to re-register it as a kit car and then you're just subject to smog tests and gas-cap tests. No obd1 or 2 is required for kit cars (at least not in az).
I'm trying to figure out how to run the ms1 setup while still passing emissions...only problem is then I have no way to control ignition, so I'm also looking into an msd to see if I can run them in tandem to take complete control without having to deal with HPT and still pass emissions.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:20 AM
Nukkinfuttz wrote:sorry, wrong link... here it is... www.megamanual.com/tamp.htm
Are you still making those p&p 2.4 ms kits and have you made any yet?
Blew it up, build numbers coming soon
Nukkinfuttz wrote:megasquirt is not CARB certified, therefore illegal to run on any road vehicle in america.
South Dakota does not have an emissions law. Non that I am aware of anyway.
yes, ive made one 2.4 PNP replacement so far, a guy in Texas owns it, its in his car now, its currently running. Im gonna try to get him to post up his experience with it on here in my other thread so ya'll can see
M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance
A PNP MS is like a pre-made PB&J sandwich....just wrong. Glad to see more acceptance of the MS, but I'm not looking forward to the 'so whats this round looking thingy on the board and what does it do?' questions in the future as that's all the pnp's are gonna do....make people lazy. O well, just my $0.02, there just doesn't seem to be much room for lack of knowledge in the MS realm....and a PNP MS will be a terrible crutch for peoples lack of knowledge or worse yet lack of motivation to learn.....to those of the latter, an MS just shouldn't be owned...ever.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
then i vote to ban HPTuners use, since no one currently using it assembled there own ECU board, designed wiring diagrams, made it to plug right in and come preloaded with a base tune to start with.
MS PNP is anything but a crutch, its actually an conduit to learn. all the tedious stuff that probably would have stopped you from buying and installing an MS in your own car is done already. This allows alot of people to go ahead with it, and then learn to tune their own car. I dont see the link between electronics assembly knowledge, and engine tuning. they are two separate things. i dont see how knowing one will help/hurt with learning the other. The knowledge of the little round thingy on the board is not required to be able to make a good decision about what AFR to target. If you knew how an opto-coupler worked, would that influence your choice on Cranking pulse width? Does is matter how a cyrstal oscilator works when trying to datalog your IAT's? Im just not seeing the link.
M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance
Umm....likely response...but I think you missed my point. You have an issue with say your crank trigger. If you know what your doing you can actually dianose issues visually and with other creative methods and know where on the board the components are. So, yes, the knowledge is very important.Also, HPT again....is miles away from the MS....you can't even mention them as the same. There are many many many people on here that use HPT to the extent that knowledge will allow. Building the stock ECU need not apply since that was never an option....for the MS, not the case.
So, when somebody is running a PnP MS and decides to add something to it....what do they do? call you up and have you run to their saving? That is a terrible idea...AND...yes, a crutch. No other way to look at it.
MS PnP is a great idea for those who want to say they run an MS and thats about it. It's a bad idea to do if you actually plan on using the MS, meaning taking your car well beyond stock. Once you start talking new trigger wheels for higher resolution, COP, LC, ect. You really think a PnP is the way to go? I'm not saying it wouldn't possible, but it wouldn't be the best way about doing it. There is a huge learning curve associated to the MS, buying a pnp MS wont help that, only slow down the learning process. It's not like we can launch MT/TS and it will post a self diagnostics that can tell us there are issues with certain component/segment of the unit and gives us a # to call customer service. My point is this, instead of hand holding and selling/buying a pnp, there should be greater strides toward making the MS more user friendly and easier to use maybe better manuals and guides that confuse new-comers less. So they will be more inclined to do it themselves?
idk, I see your point, you want to make a few bucks while giving an MTV generation what they want right now. I'm just gonna say, this will end up being a band aid, cause people to ignore rather important parts of the MS altogether. Also, possibly push more people away from the MS in the long run since you have people who think it should be 'easy', after all it is a pnp unit, they get frustrated when something doesn't work...throw their hands up and then preach that the MS is garbage.
There is no replacement for time spent gaining knowledge and understanding of the MS and it's applications.
Just my $0.02
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Saturday, August 29, 2009 2:32 PM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
I have HPtuners but I also have to pass emissions and am not knowledgeable enough to use the proper resistors to trick the factory computer into thinking its working for MS. The pnp is nice in my opinion, saves time for people who need a tuning option but dont get along with wiring. I personally dont mind the wiring but i will never buy an unassembled megasquirt, assembling electrical components is not my firend lol.
While I believe assembling an MS is important, one could buy a pre-assembled unit, no shame. I've done both. Please don't get me wrong, your not going to learn everything just because you assemble it, but you will learn a whole ton of alot more then if you didn't. If you mix building it yourself with reading the manuals to learn how to add additional components needed for the options you want...your understanding of the hardware will be there. This is so valuable when it comes to diagnosing issues that may arise. Honestly tho, if soldering isn't for you...the MS wont be a cheap option for you. Hiring people to do all the modifying, or even buying a PNP unit removes alot of the cost effectiveness of the entire unit.
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
LoudCav wrote:You could always try to re-register it as a kit car and then you're just subject to smog tests and gas-cap tests. No obd1 or 2 is required for kit cars (at least not in az).
I'm trying to figure out how to run the ms1 setup while still passing emissions...only problem is then I have no way to control ignition, so I'm also looking into an msd to see if I can run them in tandem to take complete control without having to deal with HPT and still pass emissions.
:O nuuuhuuuu no way..
but i bet a kit car insurance is off the chain expensive..
Joshua Dearman wrote:While I believe assembling an MS is important, one could buy a pre-assembled unit, no shame. I've done both. Please don't get me wrong, your not going to learn everything just because you assemble it, but you will learn a whole ton of alot more then if you didn't. If you mix building it yourself with reading the manuals to learn how to add additional components needed for the options you want...your understanding of the hardware will be there. This is so valuable when it comes to diagnosing issues that may arise. Honestly tho, if soldering isn't for you...the MS wont be a cheap option for you. Hiring people to do all the modifying, or even buying a PNP unit removes alot of the cost effectiveness of the entire unit.
I bought a pre-assembled unit and the wire harness with it. I didn't wanna dick around with building it. Thing works like a dream.
Jon Mick wrote:
i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum.
man, i really wanna learn this stuff...ust out of curiosity, how did you guys learn how to do all of this? a friend? youtube? school?
Really it's:
Alpha N (Narrow Band) Vs Speed Density (Wide Band)
As far as legality:
It depends on where you live.
Here in Michigan as long as its registered, moves, and has turn signals it's legal.
Engine codes can be worked around, resistors in place of injectors... ect....
I can tell you that HP tuners is generally a @!#$ ton cheaper.
I also agree with SHOoff,
There's nothing wrong with building a pre assembled unit.
In fact if you call tuner shops that work with MS, they will often tell you 9 out of 10 times home built units will have some sort of problem while tuning. (Granted if you built it you can probably fix it).
And no matter what I would spend the $70 on a pre built harness.
It helps alot.
Gl.
You get pleanty of harness too BTW. I mounted my MS-II in the trunk of my car, to give you an idea of how much wire you have.
i find it amusing that SHOoff has nothing better to do but follow me around & be an unhelpful dick in even cross-forum. - Jon Mick
Nukkinfuttz wrote:yes, ive made one 2.4 PNP replacement so far, a guy in Texas owns it, its in his car now, its currently running. Im gonna try to get him to post up his experience with it on here in my other thread so ya'll can see
Has this been posted anywhere? I am seriously interested in this, but would like to hear from people who have it.
2010 Subaru Impreza WRX Limited
1999 Cavalier Z24 Supercharged
1999 Grand AM SE (Beater Car)
1997 GMC Sierra
2007 Honda CBR 600RR
2005 Honda TRX450R
wel i was interested in the MS pnp but was never contacted back about it so....
honestly, all this tuning stuff is pretty intimidating to me. i hear people talk about it and it just goes right over my head. i have tweaked with my own tune etc with hp tuners but if i didnt have anybody helping me out with it i would have been beyond lost.
to me the MS seems more complicated, the only real thing that reeled me in about it was the promise of any time day or night help over the phone with the pnp unit, but since i couldnt even get a call back before i first bought it, what garentees would i have that i would be able to get in contact with someone when i REALLY need help?
idk, in my eyes at the moment HPT > MS.
I must confess... I feel like a monster!
z yaaaa wrote:wel i was interested in the MS pnp but was never contacted back about it so....
honestly, all this tuning stuff is pretty intimidating to me. i hear people talk about it and it just goes right over my head. i have tweaked with my own tune etc with hp tuners but if i didnt have anybody helping me out with it i would have been beyond lost.
to me the MS seems more complicated, the only real thing that reeled me in about it was the promise of any time day or night help over the phone with the pnp unit, but since i couldnt even get a call back before i first bought it, what garentees would i have that i would be able to get in contact with someone when i REALLY need help?
idk, in my eyes at the moment HPT > MS.
While I see your point.....however the MS is a true DIY setup....it was never meant to have any phone support or anything else of the sort. All you got is the online build guides and such..nothing more. While I can't comment on the MS PNP since I wouldn't/havn't gone that route. But you can't blame anything related to customer service on the "MS". Since there is none other than the MS forums really. IMHO what the MS lacks in "customer service" makes up for tremendously in it's versatile abilities, scalable nature and open source code. This is something that to me is so much more important than somebody sitting on the other side of a phone waiting to be rude to a customer....nah, I can live without that...LOL
So, I can agree with your statements if your saying customer service is a requirement for any tuning option you go with..fine. But to say HPT > "MS" ....no no no...MS is miles ahead and in a completely different category than HPT if you look strictly at tuning capabilities alone....all other factors aside.
In all honesty the "MS PNP" is a bastardized MS anyway and should not be confused in any way with each other.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, October 23, 2009 10:59 AM
"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous
