I've been reading a lot about tuning recently and different way to do it, HpTuners, Megasquirt, and Piggybacks. Not that any are made for our cars....
I don't completely understand my tuning options. My car has the gm reflash. So, instantly, it is suck.
I could revert back to the stock ecu, and use HpTuners to tune it. But, I could only VE tune. I was under the impression that this wasn't very accurate because it goes by rpm vs tps. Not boost and vacuum.
I guess what I'm asking is this: would going back to a stock ecu, faking a 2 bar map sensor, and VE tuning work out well, or would the tune be shotty at best?
If somebody could take the time to explain this to me, it would be great.
I've talked to people on aim, but my memory retension isn't all that great at 1 am.
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Say I did do this? I could still use my iat and map sensors combined into the TMAP?
Reason I ask is because I had to leave the iat sensor unplugged driving to the dealer for the reflash.
The way i see it is more potention with VE tuning, but also you have other conditions such as altitude and season, etc, which can throw that tune off and change, which is why running the 2bar map and reflash is more reliable because your computer has more dynamic control over the tune. You have more options and potential with Megasquirt, but also has a higher learning curve and argueably less support for the application.
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I had my ecu for my 03 eco tuned and reflashed by Nelson Performance and it is great the cost 325.00 the upside they ask all the questions location, altitude and want a complete list of mods that you have done to your eco. Then your ecu is custome tuned to your application. And you get unlimited updates for free. So if you choose to aspitate they will retune for free. If you decide to put cams or headwork they will retune for free.
Sean Cahill wrote:I had my ecu for my 03 eco tuned and reflashed by Nelson Performance and it is great the cost 325.00 the upside they ask all the questions location, altitude and want a complete list of mods that you have done to your eco. Then your ecu is custome tuned to your application. And you get unlimited updates for free. So if you choose to aspitate they will retune for free. If you decide to put cams or headwork they will retune for free.
Did they actually dyno the car or did you send them your ecu?
You can't truely tune the car without having the ECU in the car and it running, there isn't some magical list, add Y for X mod, you can guess, but your not going to get close to what you would if you had the car on the dyno or even a road tune with wideband. You can make changes in timing advance and VE tables, but you have no idea where the magic line is, where you are going to get KR, and what is a safe tune. I have a few friends with Fbodys have sent their ECUs out to be tuned, they come back and their car runs like 5hit, they have no idea what changes were made, etc etc. Granted with small blocks, there is a lot better understanding of what modifications can be made over stock tune to make power within a safe margin because thousands of people have experimented with it, theres also more tolerance just due to the nature of the motor and stock tune.
The best option is find a friend who will help you for 100 bucks or actually take it to a shop and have it dyntuned.
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Actually i had to install my ecu and then go to the dyno and from there it was tuned via on intenet connection with ajustments made while on the dyno.
How were our cars dyno tuned prior to HPTuners? Do they have some sort of ecu tuning device that works with our cars not available on the market?
No, FMU and larger injectors, or complete stand-alone like Megasquirt.
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The problem with Megasquirt is my IAT sensor.
I'd only want Megasquirt to control fuel, so I'd need the iat sensor.
Would the ecu need the iat sensor at all if it doesn't control fuel?
If it does, how can I branch off the IAT from my TMAP sensor without throwing a code?
Somebody suggested one way diodes....
Also, the whole emissions thing has me a little worried.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, October 23, 2006 9:32 PM
the iat sensor helps the computer kno how much timing to pull to save the engine if temps get to hot... you can run a secondary iat sensor to the megasquirt computer if it needs it.... only temp that controls fuel is engine temps, thats why people have problem with cold starts when they run full standalones, i think
i want megasquirt for fuel control too, i will probably have it one day, but i dont think iat is one of the nessacary sensors to run it, there might be tables of fuel vs temp (idk), but i think it will run without it
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
HPT uses stock Alpha-N tuning compared to MS's Speed density, speed density uses load and MAP vs. just load for Alpha-N. If your serious about tunning, Alpha-N is like a god with three legs, it works, but you wish you had four. Speed-Density is the preferred style of tuning, you can read about it on the MS forums.
You can just get a 1993 or so camaro v6 engines IAT and just weld a bung into your intake and run MS. Its not a big deal, no need to screw with you TMAP sensor at all. you can also just get another MAP sensor and then you will run with no codes and if your slick about the wiring, you'll easily pass a visual test if your state does one.
^ Are you saying weld another sensor into my intake tube?
I'd need it in my intake manifold because the supercharger heats up the air, then the aftercooler cools it down some. So putting it in the intake tube wouldn't be accurate.
Sean Cahill wrote:Actually i had to install my ecu and then go to the dyno and from there it was tuned via on intenet connection with ajustments made while on the dyno.
Your story changes more than a newborns diaper.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
Not wanting to really get into Megasquirt, and the lack of piggybacks for our cars. The lack of potential tuning for our cars becaue GM decided it was a good idea to use 5 ecus to control one motor....I think I'll just upgrade to a 3.1" pulley, keep my stock system, and not worry about more power or tuning.
Admiral Jedi wrote:Not wanting to really get into Megasquirt, and the lack of piggybacks for our cars. The lack of potential tuning for our cars becaue GM decided it was a good idea to use 5 ecus to control one motor....I think I'll just upgrade to a 3.1" pulley, keep my stock system, and not worry about more power or tuning.
phlatcav seems to be having good success with a 2.9" pulley, and only an aftermarket FPR... are you planning to go beyond that ?
14.425 @ 97.833 mph stock + GMPP s/c on drag radials.
To hook the MS up on an Ecotec you need to do the following:
1. Tach signal. I personally made a small circuit to join the signals to the ICM and then ran it through a tach adapter to get a 12v square wave, but there are other solutions.
2. TPS signal. I just tapped into the existing sensor.
3. IAT I bought a MSD sensor (standard GM style) and welded a bung I made from a nut to my charge pipe. You can also buy the bungs from various places. You could also drill and tap your manifold, drill and use a second stock one or just tee into the stock one.
4. CLT I use a MSD sensor (standard gm style) for this and drilled/tapped a second location next to the stock sensor. You could also tap the stock sensor. I don't believe GM is using a variable resistance sensor becasue I actually replaced the stock one with another MSD sensor.
5. Vaccum reference. The MS has a built in map sensor capable of reading 2.5 bars total. 1bar is for vacuum and the remaining 1.5 bar is for boost. If you want to run over 20 psi you can upgrade this, although I'm not totally sure on the process, but I'm sure it's not too hard.
6. Power. You need a 12v constant and a 12v switched (ignition). For ignition I tapped into a wire undertha dash and ran it into a distribution block because I always need a 12v switched wire for something
7. Ground. Pretty simple, just find a decent ground and bolt the wires down.
8. Wire the injectors. I used some resistors in place of my stock injectors to prevent codes and just ran some new wire for my new injectors. You can use the stock harness and get really fancy but I also wanted to switch to low impedance injectors so it was easier to just run extra wires.
9. O2 sensor (optional). I wired my wideband output into the MS for logging and corrention. You don't have to do this (but it is highly recommended) or you can use a narrow band (I've done that too).
10. Tune tune tune and tune some more. I have had my days where I hated the MS but all in all I am a huge fan of it. It gives you so much control that it's easy to get confused or to mess up a setting, but it also has so many more options and add ons that you can tune it and customize it to your set up. It can be very forgiving at time but can also be a bitch at others. One of the hardest things is your cold start enrichments. Mine are still a little off becasue the weather has just started to change. On really cold mornings I have trouble starting (becasue I havn't updated my CSE's) so I have to prime the system a few times to get the extra fuel I need for start up. There are also some great tools out there to help you tune with the MS.
A few things I had to learn the hard way .....
1. Solder and heat shrink all connections. Butt connectors and the clip on ones just aren't good enough.
2. Finding a 12v switched wire that doesn't cut out while cranking is a pain in the ass.
3. With out loom wiring is ugly and people will think it's ghetto.
4. Tuning takes a long time, and you have to start all over every time you make a change to you set up.1
5. The best place for the CLT sensor is in the stock location.
6. Getting a full tach signal is hard unless you know someone that has already done it.
7. The guys at the local electronics store suck.
8. You can never have big enough tables for tuning. 8x8 tables suck for tuning, it's more then worth the ten minutes to upgrade to the 12x12 tables.
9. It's worth paying for a preassembled unit, unless you really like building hardware.
10. Don't make your own harness, it's worth the $60 to buy one, plus the wires are all labled nicely.
DanteMustDie wrote:Admiral Jedi wrote:Not wanting to really get into Megasquirt, and the lack of piggybacks for our cars. The lack of potential tuning for our cars becaue GM decided it was a good idea to use 5 ecus to control one motor....I think I'll just upgrade to a 3.1" pulley, keep my stock system, and not worry about more power or tuning.
phlatcav seems to be having good success with a 2.9" pulley, and only an aftermarket FPR... are you planning to go beyond that ?
It's not that I was planning to go beyond that, it's that I wanted to be able to have a better tune than the Gm reflash. Nothing incredibly crazy, just changing my afr's around some to make it not run so rich. I don't want to start trying to program everything about my ecu with the limited knowledge I have now.
I'm really not a fan of mechanical tuning with afpr's and I don't want to jump into a project like Megasquirt until they support sequential fuel injection. I'd like it to operate as close to it does now, but with some small things adjusted. Hope that makes sense.
Livid, that's an awesome little write-up you've got there.
I'll keep it in mind for the future.
Team Vision Racing (aka hypsy) wrote:Sean Cahill wrote:Actually i had to install my ecu and then go to the dyno and from there it was tuned via on intenet connection with ajustments made while on the dyno.
Your story changes more than a newborns diaper.
wow this guy is years ahead of all of us
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Rodimus Prime wrote:Team Vision Racing (aka hypsy) wrote:Sean Cahill wrote:Actually i had to install my ecu and then go to the dyno and from there it was tuned via on intenet connection with ajustments made while on the dyno.
Your story changes more than a newborns diaper.
wow this guy is years ahead of all of us
and technology in general
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
LIVID wrote:To hook the MS up on an Ecotec you need to do the following:
1. Tach signal. I personally made a small circuit to join the signals to the ICM and then ran it through a tach adapter to get a 12v square wave, but there are other solutions.
2. TPS signal. I just tapped into the existing sensor.
3. IAT I bought a MSD sensor (standard GM style) and welded a bung I made from a nut to my charge pipe. You can also buy the bungs from various places. You could also drill and tap your manifold, drill and use a second stock one or just tee into the stock one.
4. CLT I use a MSD sensor (standard gm style) for this and drilled/tapped a second location next to the stock sensor. You could also tap the stock sensor. I don't believe GM is using a variable resistance sensor becasue I actually replaced the stock one with another MSD sensor.
5. Vaccum reference. The MS has a built in map sensor capable of reading 2.5 bars total. 1bar is for vacuum and the remaining 1.5 bar is for boost. If you want to run over 20 psi you can upgrade this, although I'm not totally sure on the process, but I'm sure it's not too hard.
6. Power. You need a 12v constant and a 12v switched (ignition). For ignition I tapped into a wire undertha dash and ran it into a distribution block because I always need a 12v switched wire for something
7. Ground. Pretty simple, just find a decent ground and bolt the wires down.
8. Wire the injectors. I used some resistors in place of my stock injectors to prevent codes and just ran some new wire for my new injectors. You can use the stock harness and get really fancy but I also wanted to switch to low impedance injectors so it was easier to just run extra wires.
9. O2 sensor (optional). I wired my wideband output into the MS for logging and corrention. You don't have to do this (but it is highly recommended) or you can use a narrow band (I've done that too).
10. Tune tune tune and tune some more. I have had my days where I hated the MS but all in all I am a huge fan of it. It gives you so much control that it's easy to get confused or to mess up a setting, but it also has so many more options and add ons that you can tune it and customize it to your set up. It can be very forgiving at time but can also be a bitch at others. One of the hardest things is your cold start enrichments. Mine are still a little off becasue the weather has just started to change. On really cold mornings I have trouble starting (becasue I havn't updated my CSE's) so I have to prime the system a few times to get the extra fuel I need for start up. There are also some great tools out there to help you tune with the MS.
A few things I had to learn the hard way .....
1. Solder and heat shrink all connections. Butt connectors and the clip on ones just aren't good enough.
2. Finding a 12v switched wire that doesn't cut out while cranking is a pain in the ass.
3. With out loom wiring is ugly and people will think it's ghetto.
4. Tuning takes a long time, and you have to start all over every time you make a change to you set up.1
5. The best place for the CLT sensor is in the stock location.
6. Getting a full tach signal is hard unless you know someone that has already done it.
7. The guys at the local electronics store suck.
8. You can never have big enough tables for tuning. 8x8 tables suck for tuning, it's more then worth the ten minutes to upgrade to the 12x12 tables.
9. It's worth paying for a preassembled unit, unless you really like building hardware.
10. Don't make your own harness, it's worth the $60 to buy one, plus the wires are all labled nicely.
im officially bookmarking this thread
|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|
As I have said before, I would love to rn a good tune with HPT but would realy realy like to see what GM changed in the reflash and build off of that. However even with a 2.9 pulley and aeromotive fpr my AF numbers and knock are great. Untill I build a motor and add bigger injecotrs I have no use for HPT.
