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Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:00 AM on j-body.org
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=889b9de6-f712-4ee5-b3cf-4cec2137f986&k=94205

Tried to find a US paper link... nothing on a google search.



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Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:00 AM on j-body.org
Bush plan for Alaska oil drilling blocked
National wildlife refuge

Sheldon Alberts
CanWest News Service


Thursday, December 22, 2005


WASHINGTON - Democrats in the U.S. Senate succeeded yesterday in blocking White House-backed legislation to open Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil drilling, sparing the Canadian government -- at least temporarily -- a showdown with the Bush administration over the controversial plan.

Amid heated rhetoric and threats of political retribution, Republican supporters of Arctic drilling failed to get the 60 votes needed to prevent a Democratic filibuster aimed at killing the oil exploration provisions.

"It is a real victory for the environmental movement all throughout this country," said Senator Dianne Feinstein of California.

The Senate's move was a disappointment for U.S. President George W. Bush, who had lobbied for passage of the Arctic oil plan as part of a US$453-billion military spending bill that primarily funds U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Opponents of drilling accused Republicans of trying to force them into supporting the oil plan by including it in a must-pass defence bill. Instead, they balked at the manoeuvre and turned the tables on the majority party.

"At the 11th hour, the proponents of oil drilling have attached this provision where it does not belong in the hope that we will be intimidated into voting for something we don't believe is right," Senator Joseph Lieberman said. "I have too much a sense of responsibility to the Senate to be intimidated in this way to support something I believe is wrong."

Supporters of drilling have tried for decades to open a 600,000-hectare section of the refuge in northeastern Alaska to oil firms, arguing it would reduce America's dependence on foreign oil.

But environmentalists, Democratic lawmakers and Canadian officials all claim oil activity would harm wildlife in the pristine wilderness, including the migrating Porcupine caribou herd.

In particular, Ottawa is concerned drilling would threaten the livelihood of the Yukon's Vuntut Gwitchin First Nations people, who rely on the caribou for sustenance.

Supporters of drilling had appeared on the verge of success when the U.S. House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved the measure in a vote Monday.

Alaska Senator Ted Stevens, the Republicans' deputy whip and the party's biggest champion of Arctic drilling, had angrily vowed to keep the Senate in session through Christmas until it was approved.

"I want you to know we're going to be here until [New Years Day]. We're going to stay here until this is finished," Mr. Stevens said.

But amid the Democratic stalling, most Republicans appeared resigned to stripping the Arctic refuge provisions out of the military-spending bill and trying again to pass the drilling plan when Congress returns in the New Year.

"Obviously, the government of Canada will be extremely pleased" that the drilling provision has been removed from the legislation, said Jasmine Panthaky, a spokeswoman for the Canadian Embassy in Washington.

"It reflects our opposition to the opening of oil and gas development in the Arctic refuge. We intend to continue to monitor developments and oppose any measures that may still allow for drilling in the [caribou] calving grounds."

The pre-Christmas spirit of acrimony in Washington extended to debate over the USA Patriot Act, the sweeping anti-terror legislation passed by Congress after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

A group of four moderate Republicans have joined with Democrats to block renewal of key domestic surveillance provisions in the act -- including roving wiretaps and secret record searches -- which expire on Dec. 31.

"The Patriot Act is scheduled to expire at the end of this year. The terrorist threat is not going to expire at the end of this year," Mr. Bush told reporters.

"This obstruction is inexcusable. The senators obstructing the Patriot Act need to understand that the expiration of this vital law will endanger America and will leave us in a weaker position in the fight against brutal killers."

Patriot Act opponents argue the legislation infringes on the civil liberties of Americans. Their opposition grew after revelations last week that Mr. Bush had secretly authorized domestic spying against terror suspects, bypassing normal requirements that court orders be obtained to conduct such surveillance.

"This is not a time to make irresponsible statements about what happens to this nation if the Patriot Act were to expire," Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont said.

© National Post 2005


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Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:16 AM on j-body.org
Bah asshats... I guess when the taxpayers are paying for your gas it isnt as big a deal for you. I am pretty liberal.... well I guess more of a moderate but I say get to drillin....
Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 5:26 AM on j-body.org
So you think it's OK to destroy the livelyhood of an entire people for the sake of 6 days (worldwide suppy) worth of oil?

It's not like that's a major deposit up there that would actually impact the supply issues that exist today.

Regardless of what you think, oil is in short supply and the price will continue to rise despite new drilling. There has not been a signifigant find since 1978 anywhere in the world. The Alaska oil project would not impact the price at the pump what so ever but it would disrupt the food chain and have devestating effects on the welfare of an Innuit nation.

You tried to make GAM sound greedy.

PAX
Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 5:31 AM on j-body.org
So what the hell lives up there anyway ? Are we so worried we will block the beautiful view of whatever mountain and some caribu can't romance mrs. caribu how he would have liked to....... Um, SO FREEKING WHAT !! Damn who gives a fat flying rats ass about screwing up the view that NOONE is there to take advantage of anyway !! Good
lord ! I could see it being a problem if thousands of people lived there and it would
screw up there view or resale value or anything, but its uninhabited by people never used by people and hell never even seen by people ! So whats the problem ?

Start drilling and find us some oil so gas prices can drop to around a doller a gallon again.

I'm all for conservation but not when it could make our lives better.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:36 AM on j-body.org
Jack: Opening up Anwr for drilling wouldn't drop the price of oil a dime.

So you'd have more oil, one less wildlife reserve, and no better prices. What's the point?

How's about paring back consumption to what it was (per person) in the 30's. If you want to deflate oil prices, you need to reduce demand.


Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:40 AM on j-body.org
They have been trying to pass something that would let us drill up there forever. but it never gets done because all of the enviromentalists start flipping out and crying about the poor animals up there. Obviously we need to do some research to find out exactly where this oil might be. This was kind of sneaky, putting it in to a defense bill. But in a way they are right. This oil could be vital to our national security. We gotta find it somewhere. If it comes down to losing a little bit of pristine wilderness and gaining some independence from the middle east oil mafia, I say goodbye to the pristine wilderness. It's not like were drilling all over the whole friggin state of Alaska here. This stuff has never passed because the senators from the liberal states (california, mass, etc) are just trying to sound pro-enviroment to please their base when in reality they have probably never even been to alska and the drive their Ford excursions around all day burning up oil like we already started drilling. I say let the drilling begin.


My other car is an interceptor.
Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:50 AM on j-body.org
It would appear that I have a new found friend in Mr. Steve Webb.

Anyway Gam to answer your post about reduceing consumption to the level it was in the
30's is just silly. Their are sooo many more people around now days then there was back then. But Heres a few comparos off the top of my head. No more horses running around means more cars means more oil use. No more coal fired locomotives means diesels now rule = more oil. There IS NO WAY we could ever have it like it was back in the 30's. Well without a crippleing world war or some such thing.

But please any ideas you may have for replaceing the amount of oil being used are more then welcome.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:50 AM on j-body.org
Im kind of divided on the subject.


ALTHOUGH I know that it will get drilled eventually. So its only a roadblock, people are gonna need gas and when the time comes there will be no stopping it.


____________________________________________________________________
Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.



Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:53 AM on j-body.org
If you want to see where the mid-east "oil mafia" starts.. it's on the futures market in New York, London and other major centers. They offer at an amount, and people either do or don't buy, and they'll sell to the highest bidder.

The problem is that it's not going to be available soon, and it won't fix the problem anyway. Losing the wilderness, and the natives that live there losing their livelihood is a side effect that isn't necessary, either.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but, aren't the senate AND the congress both controlled by the GOP? Would that not mean that fat-cat conservatives in their Excursions etc voted the proposal down in greater force?



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Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:02 AM on j-body.org
They needed a 2 thirds majority vote and they don't hold that many seats. Tho they do controll both its just bearly.

But seriously Gam. How do you propose we get back to the 30's ?




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.




Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:14 AM on j-body.org


























Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:18 AM on j-body.org




SMART ASS !!!! LOL !!!

Besides Doc Brown ! How could we get our consumption down to the levels it was
in the 30's ?

I don't think its possible.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:21 AM on j-body.org
gasohol, electric cars, more public transport, stop using NG to power electricity generators...

it can be done



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:34 AM on j-body.org
This is something I don't understand. The US would rather drill oil in Alaska then import it from Canada? There's civilization here, few environmental concerns, and normal weather conditions.

Link to McLeans

I swear, the US only sees Canada as a frozen wasteland sometimes.....


______________________________________________________________
ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.

Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:38 AM on j-body.org
Ok now see that I agree with. But would Canada have a hissy fit if we drilled up in your back yard ?

Look I don't nessacarily want to just destroy Alaska if we have other alternatives and I believe I already said that so if there is something else that can be done then we should deff explore that as well.

BTW, all those ideas you gave are not bad. expensive but not bad. And I believe we are actualy working on some.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 7:51 AM on j-body.org
Jackalope wrote:Ok now see that I agree with. But would Canada have a hissy fit if we drilled up in your back yard ?


If you mean drilling in Alaska, I don't think Canada can do anything about it. I mean, it's your land right?


______________________________________________________________
ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.

Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:02 AM on j-body.org
Actualy Glace I ment drilling in Canada, sorry if I wasn't clear.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:07 AM on j-body.org
No, I don't think there'd be any big problems.

You already get 40% of your oil from Canada, and 12% from Russia.

However, the other options would end dependance on external oil supplies completely. And yes, they're being developed, slowly...




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:09 AM on j-body.org
Jackalope wrote:Actualy Glace I ment drilling in Canada, sorry if I wasn't clear.


We're already drilling like crazy so it doesn't matter to us really. Our problem is that we have a labor and housing shortage. Fort McMurray is a crazy town, 1 bedroom aparmtents can cost more than $1000 CDN in rent (if you somehow find one), and McDonald's workers can make like $12/hour. Of course, I hear it's a real @!#$ hole place though.....


______________________________________________________________
ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.

Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:10 AM on j-body.org
Oh yeah, Fort McMurray is at the heart of where the oil sands are located...


______________________________________________________________
ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.


Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:16 AM on j-body.org
/\ /\ /\ Thats nuts !!


Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:25 AM on j-body.org
THey can't help it that they founded the town in the middleof a tarsands deposit...

Or the rent... hrmm




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 8:55 AM on j-body.org
Ya, I heard that people rent out walk-in closets......and people take them!


______________________________________________________________
ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.

Re: Sense?
Thursday, December 22, 2005 9:23 AM on j-body.org
I am not saying go up there and clear cut ANWR. I am saying I dont see a problem with some exploratory drilling. I dont believe there is any true way to judge the supply of oil without drilling some holes.



http://www.anwr.org/docs/CloseupofareaIII.pdf

Here is the proposed site they would like to drill on drawn to scale on the map shown as the lil red dot. Incase you cant find it its located in the green section of the map. 2000 Square acres is a lot of land I will give you that but in comparison to the actual size of ANWR sorry its irrelavent.
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