Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is dead - so do you think that is going to make much of a difference in the situation in Iraq? Will this change anyones opinion as to if the Iraq war/Iraq occupation is a mistake?
Personally I think someone will just replace the latest "martyr." I think that this will at best - temporarily slow the violence for a few days. Granted, I'm glad justice is done to him, but I just don't think this is going to have much effect of the ground conditions in Iraq. Hopefully I'm wrong though.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
I view terrorists the same way as drug dealers. You can take out (or peacefully arrest, as in Saddam) one and there will be another one to take his place.
The only way to eliminate terrorists is to get our soldiers out of the middle east and leave them completely alone. No more selling them weapons or tech, no more diddling around with governments, etc etc. Otherwise there will always be someone willing to talk someone into blowing themselves up for "the cause".
We can think this will slow the problem, but even though he was a terrorist, he was one of them. Just like when we captured Saddam, Iraqis were happy for about 15 minutes then they wanted us to GET OUT OF THEIR COUNTRY. As long as we are there things will only get worse.
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John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
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Heh, this would mean something if al-Zarqawi was what we've been led to believe he is. The American government, through the media and other forums, have depicted this man as the ring leader; the most evil of all the terrorists. He simply was anything but. Yes, he was a horrible man who participated and led horrible acts, but the fact remains he was but one player in all this. There are hundreds of al-Zarqawi's. Besides, the military came to Bush and told them that they could take out al-Zarqawi multiple times before this war even started. The administration vehenemently refuse to let that happen. They needed him as a scape goat, some way to frame this war as going well. Granted they couldn't find him for a couple years and couldn't kill him, but they finally did. Just in time for elections too!
It's all bull, and ultimately means little to nothing in this war. There were still be hundreds of Iraqi's killed each month and soldiers will continue to die. Sounds like a swell accomplishment for this administration.
Tristan wrote:Heh, this would mean something if al-Zarqawi was what we've been led to believe he is. The American government, through the media and other forums, have depicted this man as the ring leader; the most evil of all the terrorists. He simply was anything but. Yes, he was a horrible man who participated and led horrible acts, but the fact remains he was but one player in all this. There are hundreds of al-Zarqawi's. Besides, the military came to Bush and told them that they could take out al-Zarqawi multiple times before this war even started. The administration vehenemently refuse to let that happen. They needed him as a scape goat, some way to frame this war as going well. Granted they couldn't find him for a couple years and couldn't kill him, but they finally did. Just in time for elections too! It's all bull, and ultimately means little to nothing in this war. There were still be hundreds of Iraqi's killed each month and soldiers will continue to die. Sounds like a swell accomplishment for this administration.
Do you not see how many this guy has killed ? And when a car bomb goes off and he come on TV and says he sent them then what should we think he's kiddin ? Look dude I know you have serious issues with the govt. but when govts. all over the world are calling for him to be killed and HIS OWN country wants him dead for killing people from his own country I guess that they're lying too right ? He was the biggest threat over there beside Bin-Ladden himself, He had a 25 million doller bounty on his head the same as Bin-Ladden and your saying he wasn't that bad ??? I guess Hitler wasn't that bad of a guy either huh ? You are out of your ever loving mind !
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope wrote: He had a 25 million doller bounty on his head
Who was offering the bounty, and more importantly, how does our military get to collect it?
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John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
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Auto
We were and it wasn't for offing him it was for information leading to his capture or death. One of his own guys ratted him out after he ordered the murder of the students at the fake police check point.
Don't tell me you hadn't heard of any of this !
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jackalope, you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that this guy wasnt a horrible, horrible man responsible for a lot over there. All I am saying is that one, we could have killed him multiple times and if we had thecrap he has done would never have happened, two the government has truly made this guy in to much more than he really is. Don't get me wrong, he's a horrible dude, and it's a good thing that's he dead, but there are hundreds of other al-Zarqawis. I never said we're lying about him, just giving him a bit of a larger role than he plays. My honest opinion is this doesn't matter much as soldiers will continue to die and so will hundreds and thousands of Iraqi's. It seems like a great victory on paper, but ultimately the violence will continue.
Oh this will stir up a hornets nest you can be sure but yes this freak was the big guy over there and the only reason we didn't kill him earlier was where he was hold up at there were far too many civilians and we didn't want to kill all them just to get to him. Go read up on all the killings he did and or ordered and yes he was the worst murderer in years over there. Why do you think he was called Zarcowie the butcher ? Not cause he could cut a mean flank steak thats for sure !
Seriously go check out ll the hundreds of people that were killed because he gave the order to do it. Yes HUNDREDS !
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Meh, maybe it'll get paid maybe it won't who knows but I'd be willing to bet money on the he'll be replaced part of what you said Bagged.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
The sad part is killing this guy is just like killing a fly. There'll be five more just like him waiting to take his place. Except these flies have AK47s and RPGs. And the backing of thousands of other flies who also have AK47s and RPGs.
That's why the Air force dropped 2 500lbs bombs than using
a sniper.
I just want to verify that Jackalope just compared someone who has killed a few thousand people, to Hitler, who is responsible for the deaths of almost 10 million jews...
No I asked if Tristan believed that Hitler wasn't that bad either. Big Difference !
I never compaired the two at all.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
bliZsham wrote:I just want to verify that Jackalope just compared someone who has killed a few thousand people, to Hitler, who is responsible for the deaths of almost 10 million jews...
Didn't the both deserve to die? Yes there is a big difference. Just don't make one sound like a lesser criminal.
ln2johnny wrote:The sad part is killing this guy is just like killing a fly. There'll be five more just like him waiting to take his place. Except these flies have AK47s and RPGs. And the backing of thousands of other flies who also have AK47s and RPGs.
I think we're giving the whole of the extremist muslim population way too much credit. Just because someone has a machine gun and a beard doesn't mean he can run a big network like this. zarqawi was the leader of these nuts, his name and actions brought a lot of money into them, not any fool off the street can replace that. Also, the next guy to take his place, if there is one, will think even more about when his turn will be for the big bomb to drop on his head. Sure, they talk a good game about not being afraid to die, the martyrdom of their cause, but every human is afraid of death, whether or not they show it on an Al-jazera video.
Jackalope wrote:No I asked if Tristan believed that Hitler wasn't that bad either. Big Difference !
I never compaired the two at all.
Alright, you have managed to confuse the crap out of me. You're asking if I thought Hitler wasn't that bad either? For starters, where the hell did you get the idea that I didn't think al-Zarqawi was that bad? I said that he is a horrible dude and deserved to die. I just said that he isn't the sole leader of all the terrorism in Iraq. He is but one of many others just like him. Hell, even your fearless leader stated that this isn't going to quicken the war in Iraq. There will continue to be bombings and hundreds of Iraqi's killed. That's all I am saying. Zarqawi was portrayed as the figure head of terrorism in Iraq by our media. But he wasn't. There are many more just like him.
Jackalope, you have this funny way of trying to throw some absurd argument my way any time you disagree with me. Because you somehow interpret me as thinking Zarqawi is some fruitcake who I'd love to have over to dinner, I therefore must think Hitler was a great guy? Where do you come up with this stuff?
zero wrote:[Sure, they talk a good game about not being afraid to die, the martyrdom of their cause, but every human is afraid of death, whether or not they show it on an Al-jazera video.
Don't be so sure of that. Not everyone is scared to die. Some people in fact, welcome death. I mean if they are so damn afraid to die, then why strap a bomb to your chest and blow yourself up? Same to be said of many people who kill themselves or just allow themselves to die. Even I'm not scared to die - and I don't have it nearly as bad as alot of those people in 3rd world countries.
Jackalope wrote: He had a 25 million doller bounty on his head
You know - 25 million seems like alot to you and me, but to a government that probably spends 100 million on toilet paper alone, that is nothing. We spend multi-billions every year on who knows what, and only put a 25 million reward on this guy and on Bin Lauden. Kinda makes you wonder exactly how worried the government really was/is about catching the terrorist ring-leaders. I mean if they're half the threat to our safety as their made out to be, and if the government was 1/100th as concerned about our safety as they pretend to be, then you would think that the bounty would be a bit higher. Plus - Bin Lauden is a BILLIONAIRE, so he could obviously pay his people more than a measly 25 million - just for not to betraying him.
While offering 25 million really won't help find any of these guys - it's enough to convince most that they really care about catching these guys. They know that one terrorist will always replace the last one. Plus, if we killed OSB, who would be the scapegoat to distract us from our problems? How would they continue to scare us into giving up our rights if we don't continue to live in fear of OSB attacking again? I think that we could have caught him long ago if they really wanted to. Our satellites can read what I am typing on screen right now though the window.(not officially - but trust me they can). Even a less competent and less technologically advanced military would have found his defibrillator-junkie ass long ago. We had a chance to catch him in Afghanistan a long time ago, and Bush decided to let the warlords pursue instead, hmm... wonder why? For all I know - a warlord may have caught him - but he is a billionaire so... "Sorry I never saw him we must be too late" It's not like that scenario didn't occur to any of our leaders. Who is to say that's not the way they wanted it anyways.
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
zero wrote:ln2johnny wrote:The sad part is killing this guy is just like killing a fly. There'll be five more just like him waiting to take his place. Except these flies have AK47s and RPGs. And the backing of thousands of other flies who also have AK47s and RPGs.
I think we're giving the whole of the extremist muslim population way too much credit. Just because someone has a machine gun and a beard doesn't mean he can run a big network like this. zarqawi was the leader of these nuts, his name and actions brought a lot of money into them, not any fool off the street can replace that. Also, the next guy to take his place, if there is one, will think even more about when his turn will be for the big bomb to drop on his head. Sure, they talk a good game about not being afraid to die, the martyrdom of their cause, but every human is afraid of death, whether or not they show it on an Al-jazera video.
Well that's something you and I disagree on, and as much as I respect your views, I truely hope that for you, I, and the rest of the world, you're right.
bliZsham wrote:I just want to verify that Jackalope just compared someone who has killed a few thousand people, to Hitler, who is responsible for the deaths of almost 10 million jews...
That number is widely disputed. I know it's not the topic of this thread but please don't spread dissinformation about anything. The number killed has been said to be anywhere between 200 000 and 12 million. The most common number toughted is 6 million but even the American Jewish Congress admitted that 3 million is likely a more accurate number. Hitler was a murderer and had megelomaniac ideals but let's not make it worse than it was. Our history is bad enough without propaganda and lies being added to the already inflated stories of our past.
PAX
Hahahaha wrote:bliZsham wrote:I just want to verify that Jackalope just compared someone who has killed a few thousand people, to Hitler, who is responsible for the deaths of almost 10 million jews...
That number is widely disputed. I know it's not the topic of this thread but please don't spread dissinformation about anything. The number killed has been said to be anywhere between 200 000 and 12 million. The most common number toughted is 6 million but even the American Jewish Congress admitted that 3 million is likely a more accurate number. Hitler was a murderer and had megelomaniac ideals but let's not make it worse than it was. Our history is bad enough without propaganda and lies being added to the already inflated stories of our past.
PAX
(not just the bold either)
I don't understand.. Do you have a problem with truth in history or do you have a problem with the word "toughted" (wich appears to be mis-spelled). I just meant the information being promoted, or given most commonly. It would be pronounced t-out-ed (out sound in the middle). I may not be a very good speller, but it is not "taught" mis-spelled, it was an attempt at a seperate and real word. Teachings deal in fact and because of all the propaganda surrounding the Jewish experience in WWII it seems nobody really knows what the real truth is.
PAX
So is it everyone's opinion that the US military should kill anyone suspected of terrorist leadership the way that this man was killed?
No one has said anything about this being against the Geneva convention, because it's a planned murder of a strategic leader. Is everyone OK with the assassination of a leader? I'm sure there are Iraqi people who view Bush as a criminal who ordered just as many (if not more) deaths as al-Zarqawi.
If this action is acceptable because we call al-Zarqawi a "terrorist", would it be as acceptable if an Iraqi group called Bush a terrorist cell leader and blew up the white house?
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John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Hahahaha: isn't it
touted? As for the rest: I seem to recall the number being 6 million people, not just Jews. There were Communists, Catholics, Nazi Denouncers, Muslims, Kurds, Gypsies, and POWs in those camps.
John: Much of the operation in Iraq is in a muddy area of the articles of war, and terrorism isn't really uniformly covered in the Geneva Convention as it only deals with State-to-State wars... Al-Queda isn't a state, and in some circles, considered to have transcended state-hood as it has no real sponsors that are governmental, and to make matters worse: has no real internal structure or regimented ranking system.
In that case, it's more akin to a criminal organisation than anything, and may indeed be funded by narcotics trafficking.
At this point, the Geneva Convention is NOT applicable as it stands.
To top that off, where it IS applicable (ie, Afghanistan, treatment of POW's in Iraq), the US has more or less ignored or swept it under the rug anyhow.
The whole thing is a pretty s****y mess if you ask me... Thanks Dubya.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
