[quote=SpeedRacerZ
protomec wrote:Thank you Brian, you have hit on some of the major points that I have been trying to drive into his head.
I tried. For some reason he keeps thinking Skilz's engine was a stock LD9 w/ a home made turbo kit. Hell, my "Mildly" built LD9 setup put down 171hp N/A to the wheels...... and 420hp on 15psi (his "calculation" says Skilz's setup would need 17.59psi for just 350hp.......)
Oh wait...... that must be where
VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY, THERMAL EFFICIENCY, and MECHANICAL EFFICIENCY come into play!
.
deal. (11+14.7) / 14.7 X 171 = NHP
1.748 X 171 = 298.9
WHP = 299
This falls perfectly in line with your MPH vs Wieght Formula. I really dont like the ET forumula, becuase traction and driver error are large issues that can skew the result. I guess its good to see how much power you have (MPH) vs. How much power you effectively used on that run ( ET)
So, going by this line of thinking, lets reverse engineer it for skills car.
297 = WHP
(7.5 + 14.7) / 14.7 * X = 297
1.510 * X = 297
X = 196.662
So, his Wheel HP would have to be 197 for this amount of boost to do 300.
so, what the heck was done to make an extra 100+ WHP N/A on this car?
M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance
SpeedRacerZ wrote:
Oh wait...... that must be where VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY, THERMAL EFFICIENCY, and MECHANICAL EFFICIENCY come into play!
TA DA!!!! This is seriously starting to be funny... I am staying out of this, but from my experience/knowledge of doing this for MANY years, Todd and Brian are correct.... Nukkinfutts, you are trying to prove something that you don't have all the key values to. There is a thing called Theory VS Reality.... As for what Jeremy's engine did on those injectors, it is very possible. Its not Ideal or recommended for everybody, but it is very possible...
It just seems that everybody wants to "prove" something... Its starting to turn into a "who's Edick is bigger?" WHO CARES! I sh!t trains, now what!?!? Point being, it was done, the proof has been layed out, people have witnesses all this and this needs to be dropped... I trust Todd/Brian as fellow tuners in the field.. Wait a minute, Accomplished Tuners... People need to realize there is more than one way to "skin a cat" ....
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
oh.... i must have left out i meant doable builds for people like us.... not a 100,000 dollar unrealistic engine for people to actually drive on the street.
so tell me something, would one need a set of .890/.900 cams to achieve a 350hp ld9?
Needing 2.3 oil pump stuff? PM me...
Nukkinfuttz wrote:
So, going by this line of thinking, lets reverse engineer it for skills car.
297 = WHP
(7.5 + 14.7) / 14.7 * X = 297
1.510 * X = 297
X = 196.662
So, his Wheel HP would have to be 197 for this amount of boost to do 300.
so, what the heck was done to make an extra 100+ WHP N/A on this car?
So his "Theoretical" N/A whp is a whooping 25hp more then my actual HP. I had smaller cams, less head work, no crank work, no coatings of any kind, STOCK after cat exhaust, and amateur tuning. Why is hard to believe his better built, better tuned engine couldn't put down 197hp (hypothetically) to the wheels? Seems pretty reasonable to me. So now that we "busted" the myth of his "TRUE" HP numbers (your math just did that), and the PROOF of what his injectors flowed from the manufacturer.......
Is it safe to say now that Skilz did indeed manage to dyno just shy of 300hp on his (
ADVERTISED) 320cc injectors after all? Your math now proves that his engine was PLENTY capable to produce those HP numbers.
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
ImPhat0260/Cavattack2000 wrote:I sh!t trains, now what!?!?
You
*might* want to get that looked at! Cant be to healthy for you, or your septic system!!!!!
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
I guess its more like 70 or so WHP gain over stock...roughly.
I wish those involved would have just said so clearly from the beginning. The idea here was to find out how it was possible. I'll quote...
nukkinfuttz wrote:
i wish two respected members could explain how its possible.
nukkinfuttz wrote: and I sure would like to know your secret so i can apply it to my motor!
nukkinfuttz wrote: but what i do know is that something is still missing, something BIG.
Had someone pointed out from the very beginning that the engine was extremely built up, this could have changed alot of the way our conversation went. Also, things like this are not acceptable...
Skilz10179 wrote:
I was making 300whp on 320's, the max he'll be making with a M45 is 230whp.....
becuase its being touted as 320's are going to work. Without pertainent information, such as THIS IS A SEVERLY BUILT MOTOR, then the same doesnt apply.
okay. Now, we know basically that the turbo was not the main power source. We know that the engine must have made 197 WHP on its own. So, lets talk about that now.
Tell if im right. This power is coming from more air flow through the head. So, the engine can breath more air, but im still not satisfied that just becuase more air can enter and be processed, that the required fuel will be lowered. So, we probabably have some combination of air flow mods, AND efficency mods. So, lets hear about those efficency mods, becuase i havent yet heard of any mentioned.
M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance
agian, you would think.... that if more air was coming into the head, more fuel would be required to oxydize all that extra air. at the same time your HP should raise. So, since fuel is going up , and airflow is going up, so should stay roughly the same. UNLESS there were also significant efficency mods made. That is still going to be the only way to explain this crazy .350 BSFC.
M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance
Nukkinfuttz wrote:agian, you would think.... that if more air was coming into the head, more fuel would be required to oxydize all that extra air. at the same time your HP should raise. So, since fuel is going up , and airflow is going up, so should stay roughly the same. UNLESS there were also significant efficency mods made. That is still going to be the only way to explain this crazy .350 BSFC.
i left a word out, please read this version...
agian, you would think.... that if more air was coming into the head, more fuel would be required to oxydize all that extra air. at the same time your HP should raise. So, since fuel is going up , and airflow is going up, so BSFC should stay roughly the same. UNLESS there were also significant efficency mods made. That is still going to be the only way to explain this crazy .350 BSFC
M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance
its all in the head.
todd miller somehow can get an ld9 head to do better than anybody else's ever.
Needing 2.3 oil pump stuff? PM me...
Nukkinfuttz wrote: That is still going to be the only way to explain this crazy .350 BSFC.
I think you missed every post I've made. It's about a .452 BSFC.
2001 Olds Alero (LD9)
636 whp / 543 ft-lb
@turboalero
Todd, what do you think that head flowed? 300 CFM?
Ion- Im not ignoring your post, im just not sure how to respond to them yet.
M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance
Mmk. Numbers look decent to me..
2001 Olds Alero (LD9)
636 whp / 543 ft-lb
@turboalero
did some more number crunching... your gonna love this. lol
stock 146 @ 90% VE x 6400 RPMs = 243.3 CFMs
150x .85 = 127.5WHP
243CFMs x .617 = 150FWHP
226 - 150 = 76 HP gain total N/A
146cuin/2 x 110% VE x 6400 RPMs = 297.4 CFM's
197WHP x 1.15 = 226.5 FWHP
33 HP from air flow
43 HP from efficiency mods
297.4 x .07343 = 21.83 x 1310.28 / 13.7 = 95.64 / 4 = 23.91lbs/hr and BSFC of .522
adding in the efficiency mods, totalling 43HP, you get .423 BSFC
now take into account adding the turbo, you are increasing your BSFC to some degree, but not much, becuase his turbo isnt doing a whole lot of work. I'd guess that its probably costing his 25HP to spin it, . so, now BSFC goes to .474
next, his AFR needs to go richer from 13.7 to 12.5. This is another BSFC increase, on the order of 8.7% more fuel, so 95.64 x .087 = 103.96 lbs/hr so BSFC is going to be .515
Then comes the extra 115HP Gross from the turbo. Net gain after driving losses should be right at 90 HP.
So, BSFC goes to .356
I think i finally see the logic in this. I would like the 43'ish HP worth of efficiency gains explained. But, if you can make gains here, you are essentially getting more HP at the expence of ZERO additional fuel injection. Couple that with the fact that boost pressure ratio (1.510) is a multiplier on top of N/A numbers, your 43 hp effiency gain has translated into another additional (43 x 1.510= 64.93HP) of gain. so, 65 free HP . in reguards to fuel amount anyways.
so, lets say he had 340 crank HP - 65 hp = 275hp. So, he only needs to supply what would normally be 275HP worth of fuel. That would be about 35lbs/hr or 360cc's.
I appologize. I was wrong. :inserts foot into mouth: however it would have been nice if promotec could have explained this instead of me having to figure out myself. im sure its alot easier when you actually know what went into the engine.
But im glad i understand how this is possible mathmatically. The only thing remaining now is for someone to eplain what physical mods are nessesary to pick up 40 hp from efficency improvements. that sounds like a pretty steep number to make on a relativly small engine to begin with.
M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance
also, just as a double check, 65HP in efficiency + 33HP in flow abilities make up that 100HP that i thought was missing this whole time. theres the "something BIG".
M90'd Built LGO-15 PSI
http://webstarts.com/quadper4mance
From Skilz's registry.
Quote:
Engine:
* Block - align honed- decked- modified oil passages- bored 0.040 over
* Crank shaft- reground- removed casting marks- edged and balanced
* Miller Performance oil pan
* ARP studs and bolts for the head
* main caps and connecting rods
* Clevite 77 Main Bearings
* Clevite 77 rod Bearings
* Wiseco 91mm Piston Rings
* Wiseco Chrome-Moly Wrist Pins
* Eagle forged 4340 H-Beam connecting rods (balanced
* Removed balance shafts - 12lbs from rotating assembely
* Gear driven oil pump conversion using a modified 2.3L oil pump and 2.3L drive gear
* Garrett T3/TO4E 57 trim .60 a/r compressor .63 turbine turbo
* Greddy Type-S blow off valve
* RKSport ceramic coated turbo manifold
* Turbonetics Evolution external waste gate
* Greddy Profec B SpecII electric boost controller
* HPTuners (PCM tuning software)
* Innovative Turbo 3 ply silicone charge pipe connectors
* Innovative Turbo T bolt clamps
* 2.5" Intercooler piping
* Greddy turbo timer
* Wiseco forged pistons .040 overbore (balanced)
* 9:1 compression
* MSD dis 2
* Ported and polished head
* 3 angle valve job
* CarCustoms Forged stainless steel valves
* Mantapart Bronze valve guides
* Miller Performance intake cam
* Miller Performance exhaust cam
* 2.3L HO crank pulley
* 2.3L HO intake manifold welded- machined and port matched
* RSM Racing 62mm throttle body
* RKSport spark boot inserts
* Full 3" exhaust
I see knife edged crank, balanced rotating assembly, Wiseco Pistons (+.040" overbore), Eagle Rods, balance shafts removed, ported/polished head (possibly larger valves?), larger cams, larger T/B, 3" Exhaust....... What you wont see are all the *little* touches Todd did to it. BUT with just whats listed, you can see that its going to put out more then a Stock LD9.
Fuel Injector vs Fuel pressure Calculator 1/2 way down the page
320cc/min
Enter 43.5 for Original Pressure
Enter 55 for New Pressure
= 359.82cc/min
Now again, same link, bottom of page.
Enter "Desired" Crank Shaft HP of
344 (15% DTL for Wade
)
Enter
4 for Injector number
Enter .
355 for BSFC (for arguments sake)
Enter
.8 for IDEAL Max Injector Duty Cycle
Enter
55psi for System Fuel Pressure
Those numbers will give you the *MAGIC* Injector size of 357cc/min
Now we've been saying all along that
320cc Injectors
ARE NOT DESIRED for his power levels. So given that we all know this, bump up that Max Duty Cycle number (I've seen 100% for Duty on HPT.....) and you'll see the BSFC number will need to come down to keep around that magic 359cc/min range.
@
100% Duty Cycle, the BSFC is now
.445. Is this a more friendly number for you? (C2 was pretty damn close to this number with his calculations as well)
FUN info from HONDATA on Honda Duty Cycles
And to conclude...... again your "assuming" numbers in your calculations. I'm not 100% sure what Skilz's redline of his engine setup was, but I know on mine I reved comfortably to 7400rpm.....
The end.
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
lol hahaha ^^^^
8 psi with m62 and IAT under 100
WOW , my head hurts , LMAO
hi brian and jake ! how are you guys doing ?
my head still hurts
all i can say , is what works for some doesnt work for others , and if engineers had there way nothing would ever work right
hey could i pay one of you two to do my algebra lol hah lmao
8 psi with m62 and IAT under 100
SpeedRacerZ wrote:What you wont see are all the *little* touches Todd did to it.
id love to know what these are...
(seriously)
Needing 2.3 oil pump stuff? PM me...
z yaaaa wrote:SpeedRacerZ wrote:What you wont see are all the *little* touches Todd did to it.
id love to know what these are...
(seriously)
KY jelly and a free saturday night...
ahh sh1t, i let the cat outta the bag.
[quote=97cavie24ls(™)]WOW , my head hurts , LMAO
hi brian and jake ! how are you guys doing ?
my head still hurts
all i can say , is what works for some doesnt work for others , and if engineers had there way nothing would ever work right
Take 2 Aspirin and call me in the morning
I'm doing pretty good...... just working WAY to many hours!!!
Wish I went to school for Engineering instead of Auto mechanics...... I probably wouldn't be driving a Pepsi Truck.......
Cody Star wrote:hey could i pay one of you two to do my algebra lol hah lmao
To tell you the truth, I hate math (notice, I found online calculators to make my point, instead of writing it out like Nukkin?)
z yaaaa wrote:SpeedRacerZ wrote:What you wont see are all the *little* touches Todd did to it.
id love to know what these are...
(seriously)
You just need to know how to talk to Todd. While I've chatted with him plenty of times on AIM, I've learned the most talking to him while walking around a race track, or sitting in a bar eating pizza. Seriously.
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
Ya, LOL
And sometimes, if your lucky, he'll give you a random 27SF512 that he made for you.
(going to be trying this this summer! I hart you Tod!)
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
