I currently have the GM charger kit on my Z24. Stock Cobalt SS injectors, solid mounts, 2.5" charger pulley, 56mm throttle body, 24x12x3 intercooler, 3" intercooler piping, 2.5" exhaust piping, tuning by John Higgins, well a list of other bolt ons as well. But I have a XS Power T3/T4 turbo with a "P" trim, whatever trim that would be? 45mm waste gate ssq bov. Has anyone ever twin charged the 2.4 with decent results? The head and block are both stock, what would be the max boost that i would be able to run safely? Any advise or help is greatly needed!!!
Enjoy life while you can, because you only have one shot. So go BIG or go home.
It has been done and decent power has been made, but the same power can be made without the charger, and I feel it is safer. Less heat, maybe even more power.
FU Tuning
josh f i think is his screen name he had one. irc the results were pretty good, if anyone knows about this it would be him.
josh would know a lot about this. his car mad 230 whp he hardly posts up here anymore.
maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow....... but some day
Quote:
It has been done and decent power has been made, but the same power can be made without the charger, and I feel it is safer. Less heat, maybe even more power.
There is always air to water which is able to produce over 100% efficency. Depending upon the set up a dual air to air with water/meth injection. Both ways would produce a very dense air charge. But a little lag never hurt anyone either.
Robert Harkins wrote:Quote:
It has been done and decent power has been made, but the same power can be made without the charger, and I feel it is safer. Less heat, maybe even more power.
There is always air to water which is able to produce over 100% efficency. Depending upon the set up a dual air to air with water/meth injection. Both ways would produce a very dense air charge. But a little lag never hurt anyone either.
Here is the problem. If you are running the GM charger then you have no option to intercool the air after being compressed by the charger. So after it is cooled from the front mount for the Turbo it is being heated back up by the charger.
The 2.4 does not need all this low end power. With all the turbo options out there lag is not much of a issue, and with the torque a 2.4 has to start with twin charged is going to make it a hand full (more than it would be with just a turbo). Twin charged is cool and I think 2 people have done it now on a 2.4 and have done good with it, cool for shows.
FU Tuning
I have been running twin charged for about 3 years now. Currently I am at 305whp and 315lbs.tq @ 15psi (Mustang dyno) a bit on the safe side as far as tuning goes. The guy who did it felt slightly more boost and less timing was a better way to go with the supercharger not being able to be intercooled.
I had it at 420whp and 415lbs.tq @20psi at one point while I was having it tuned, but I really did not have traction what so ever on the street in any gear at almost any speed when we took it out for a test and because I have it up for sale so I didn’t want to sell it to some kid who ends up blowing it up the first week and coming back to me with it broken. So I had the final tune done for the 305/315 and will more than likely keep it there so that it will run reliably for a long time.
This set up is awesome in that it acts like a bigger displacement motor with unreal low and unreal top end and gets good gas mileage still ahah (450kms in the city and 675kms on the high way) but as John has said the same power can be made easier and with less heat with just a turbo kit. You won’t have the same power curve but as I found at the track this year without slicks, turbo lag is your friend and you will get quicker times as you will be able to hook up a lot better. I was trapping 110-112mph and only running 13.9's where as a guy had a turbo cavalier with 245whp and was running 13.1s all night
Any way for your set up, the max boost you can run is kind of a loose term as there are a lot of factors that will determine what you can run. But for numbers sake on a stock internal engine 250whp was all I could push out of it with the twin charged setup until I blew the head gasket. Now that I am fully built up and at 305whp I feel confident that I could run this level of power for years to come.
My last words of advice are, if you can’t do custom work as in build your own turbo kit or fix 98% of the problems that go wrong on your car, do not attempt to do this. It’s the same as if you were to do just a turbo kit, but my reasoning is if something goes wrong there are not many shops you can go to and have it just fixed.
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Here is the problem. If you are running the GM charger then you have no option to intercool the air after being compressed by the charger. So after it is cooled from the front mount for the Turbo it is being heated back up by the charger.
The 2.4 does not need all this low end power. With all the turbo options out there lag is not much of a issue, and with the torque a 2.4 has to start with twin charged is going to make it a hand full (more than it would be with just a turbo). Twin charged is cool and I think 2 people have done it now on a 2.4 and have done good with it, cool for shows.
In my first post I provide several links. The second design is a dual air to air set up. The GM charger can be intercooled. Click the link, scroll down a few post and everything will explain itself. On the other hand you are right about the turbo being the a better choice overall. With Borg Warner, Holset and a few others packed with things like the Map Width Enhancement and Twin scroll lag isn't much of a issue anymore.
Just trying to provide some constructive information. Again that is just my .02
And Josh F I think it’s great that you have twin charged your J body. I bet it’s a hell of a ride! The power curve probably resembles a Telsa.
Robert Harkins wrote:
Here is the problem. If you are running the GM charger then you have no option to intercool the air after being compressed by the charger. So after it is cooled from the front mount for the Turbo it is being heated back up by the charger.
The 2.4 does not need all this low end power. With all the turbo options out there lag is not much of a issue, and with the torque a 2.4 has to start with twin charged is going to make it a hand full (more than it would be with just a turbo). Twin charged is cool and I think 2 people have done it now on a 2.4 and have done good with it, cool for shows.
In my first post I provide several links. The second design is a dual air to air set up. The GM charger can be intercooled. Click the link, scroll down a few post and everything will explain itself. On the other hand you are right about the turbo being the a better choice overall. With Borg Warner, Holset and a few others packed with things like the Map Width Enhancement and Twin scroll lag isn't much of a issue anymore.
Just trying to provide some constructive information. Again that is just my .02
And Josh F I think it’s great that you have twin charged your J body. I bet it’s a hell of a ride! The power curve probably resembles a Telsa.
Those links were not on J's, which is a different story. The Gm 2.4 charger is built into the intake manifold, so you can't intercool it. This is whay many people have either tried to make or want a charger manifold made for the 2.4 s they can mount there own charger and aftercool it.
FU Tuning
John Higgins wrote:Robert Harkins wrote:
Here is the problem. If you are running the GM charger then you have no option to intercool the air after being compressed by the charger. So after it is cooled from the front mount for the Turbo it is being heated back up by the charger.
The 2.4 does not need all this low end power. With all the turbo options out there lag is not much of a issue, and with the torque a 2.4 has to start with twin charged is going to make it a hand full (more than it would be with just a turbo). Twin charged is cool and I think 2 people have done it now on a 2.4 and have done good with it, cool for shows.
In my first post I provide several links. The second design is a dual air to air set up. The GM charger can be intercooled. Click the link, scroll down a few post and everything will explain itself. On the other hand you are right about the turbo being the a better choice overall. With Borg Warner, Holset and a few others packed with things like the Map Width Enhancement and Twin scroll lag isn't much of a issue anymore.
Just trying to provide some constructive information. Again that is just my .02
And Josh F I think it’s great that you have twin charged your J body. I bet it’s a hell of a ride! The power curve probably resembles a Telsa.
Those links were not on J's, which is a different story. The Gm 2.4 charger is built into the intake manifold, so you can't intercool it. This is whay many people have either tried to make or want a charger manifold made for the 2.4 s they can mount there own charger and aftercool it.
ahah thanks, and yea it’s a different feeling for a small 2.4L Kept up nose to nose with my girl friends dads Z06 from a dig to 180km which I would say is some good low end. And that a car that can run 11.9’s in bone stock forum.
But I 100% agree with John here on the issue of heat. There are ways of getting around it with spraying alcohol but trust me on this one when I say you don’t want to rely on this because you will be spraying constantly and will be going through alcohol faster than you go through gas and it gets very annoying having to constantly fill it. That’s also another reason I am staying at 305whp because that way I don’t have to spray any alcohol and I just have it come on when I want (Track days).
If this set up could have been intercooled like the eco set up than I would have nothing bad to say at all about it, and then I probably would have felt more confident running high to low 400whp on this engine.
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
I understand what what you saying and I also know that it wasn't a J platform. He designed and built everything himself and I've knowticed several j body members who have done the same. The only limitation you have is yourself and your pocket book. Although with the cavalier being wrong wheel drive lag is a good friend. All in all I do agree with the both of you.
I browsed this site for around a month before I joined, looking and reading as much as I could. With this being my 12th cavalier (no typo) I choose to join. Moding j bodys with more than just your average intake and fart can has impressed me alot considering they were an econo box. So... twin charging a cavalier takes some balls and the original post got me slightly over excited. Whoever accomplishes this is a grade A engineer in my book. Now I will stop whoreing this thread. I wish the best for whoever trys this. Don't forget to post results if you do.
Robert Harkins wrote:I understand what what you saying and I also know that it wasn't a J platform. He designed and built everything himself and I've knowticed several j body members who have done the same. The only limitation you have is yourself and your pocket book. Although with the cavalier being wrong wheel drive lag is a good friend. All in all I do agree with the both of you.
I browsed this site for around a month before I joined, looking and reading as much as I could. With this being my 12th cavalier (no typo) I choose to join. Moding j bodys with more than just your average intake and fart can has impressed me alot considering they were an econo box. So... twin charging a cavalier takes some balls and the original post got me slightly over excited. Whoever accomplishes this is a grade A engineer in my book. Now I will stop whoreing this thread. I wish the best for whoever trys this. Don't forget to post results if you do.
sweet, so your saying I am a good engineer hey
.. Thank you
To be honest its not all that hard to build. It takes time and careful searching around to find good prices on parts and you want to make sure you do it properly so you don't end up going back and re-doing parts but I would say the absolute hardest part was the cold side of the charge pipes, but once I found the RD Fabs cold air intake that went down into the wheel well it was dead easy.
And tuning it is no different than tuning any other boosted Jbody, the boost just comes on harder and faster thats all
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Ok, i just had to add my $0.02...
It is too early to really comment too much.... But i am running a TwinCharged LD9 as well. she only has 1500 miles on the TwinCharged Engine Build. And so far the twincharging has given me the least amount of trouble. It seems like everything else is giving me the grief.
I did this just for the challenge... And i have to say I love it. Can it be done better? Was it the best choice? Is turbo alone better? All of these are questions i cannot answer.
As far as the heat goes.... So far my IAT's twincharged are lower than they ever were with just the SC. The SC doesnt have to do nearly the work it did before, so it heatsoaks a fraction of what it did before. At one point you couldnt even touch my SC housing after a rigorous drive, now even after a good bit of stomping on it, the SCs housing stays cool enough to lay your face on it.
The intercooler for the turbo really helps to keep the SC cool. Yes, the air would be alot colder if the SC wasnt there, but it is a small price to pay IMO. I really expected heat to be alot bigger problem, but so far i have been thrilled with my IAT's at this stage.
For me boost pressures and Computer Limitations are the real issue with this setup.
My SC with a 2.7" pulley effectively doubles the boost from the turbo. I am getting 5-6psi out of the turbo, and 10-12psi in the manifold. I am just about to start upping the turbo boost a tad... but my car with the SC kit only has and supports 2bar... so being at 12ish now... i can only nudge the turbo up another psi or 2 before i am out of my Map's range. Once i get over this hurdle, then we will see...
I built may setup around very high PSI's.. i was aiming for mid 20's. i went with 8.5:1 pistons, and a pretty big turbo. So as of right now, with the turbo crippled to 5psi, i am no where near her potential, but i can say she sure is peppy.
I have alot more tweaks and mods to add to her... so the project continues...
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=46&i=368940&t=368940
http://www.ohiojbody.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3159489
^^Why are you only getting 5-6 PSI from the turbo? The WG had a 7.35 PSI spring in it when I sold.
mitdr774 wrote:^^Why are you only getting 5-6 PSI from the turbo? The WG had a 7.35 PSI spring in it when I sold.
I had that same problem... I put a 10psi wast gate spring in and was only seeing 6psi at the manifold...
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
I'm no turbo expert, but I know that just because there's a 10psi waste gate doesn't mean the turbo will produce 10 psi. It just means it won't produce any more than that.
If the turbo is too big or too small, it won't be able to produce what you expect, right? Either not enough exhaust flow to spin it up, or it's just too small for the engine's consumption.
On a side note... I've got a turbo manifold now... WOOT!
For what it's worth, my reasons for doing this are purely for the novelty of it. heh.
Wild weasel your joining the twin charged crew?
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
mitdr774 wrote:^^Why are you only getting 5-6 PSI from the turbo? The WG had a 7.35 PSI spring in it when I sold.
Flow my boy... Flow...
PSI drops when flow goes up...
Just like you loose pressure when you port and polish a head, less restriction, lower pressure, but still more power.
A turbo can flow alot more when it is feeding into another vacuum.
the blower is sucking as soon as i hit the throttle, well before the turbo spins up. so the added exhaust helps to get the turbo spinning, and and the added intake suction helps to reduce pressure in the charge pipes to allow less restriction on the cold side of the turbo.
So all in all the two chargers really help eachother out alot. it is rather symbiotic.
Problem is that i dont think either charger is running anywhere near its potential.... the turbo is nearly crippled, just to keep myself in the 2 bar range. This turbo would be happiest in the 10+ psi range i am stuck at 5psi... 10psi from the turbo would put me closer to 20psi manifold pressure. and that takes alot of tuning and supporting mods that i dont have yet.
I was thinking maybe running a smaller turbo that is more comfy in a high flow low pressure environment would be better... but then again, that also would restrict the exhaust flow... and i dont want that. so i am kinda stuck....
I am starting to see why many guys say you can do the same thing with a single charger.... it is just real easy for things to get out of hand twincharged.
It gets REAL expensive real fast. especailly if you want to push its potential. I warn anyone thinking about this that it is an area where you need to tread lightly and is 100% not for the novice or faint of heart, or light of wallet.
I agree with Ken on his last part about this project isnt really for a novice. To actually get the full potential you have to be willing to run higher boost which means building up your engine. I am at 15psi into the engine and I am just starting to get into the sweet spot for my turbo. If I end up keeping my car I as a fun track car and using my other vehicle as my daily driver, I do plan on turning the boost up to around 20-22psi and really enjoying what this set up can do but slicks would be a must have for that level of boost
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Hmmm ported head, 2.4" S/C pulley, and well you know what turbo setup I was running. I had no problem seeing the 1/2 bar that teh WG spring is for. The wastegate wont be fully open till 7.35 PSI regardless of how much the S/C is sucking or how well the head flows.
Josh F wrote: Wild weasel your joining the twin charged crew?
Slowly but surely. I mean... so far all I've got is a manifold and a wideband kit... and the recent stock market crashes had me throw pretty much all my savings into my retirement account... but I'll keep accumulating parts until I've got something I can put together.
Next on the list is the HPTuners kit and then I start looking for an intercooler that will fit.
The car isn't driven these days so this project doesn't really have any time restraints. I wanted to make sure I got the manifold before the market dried up and I couldn't get one anymore. Now that I have it... pretty much everything else I need is either generic or custom, so I don't have to worry about not being able to get my hands on stuff anymore.
Thanks for all of the info guys. I already have the XS power T3/T4 turbo mounted and all of the pipes ran. The 26x14x3 front is already installed, except for the waste gate and blow off valve. trying to find some room for it. freakin huge 45mm waste gate with a ten pound spring. yea, also the oil return line. the T3 exhaust housing says that it is .86 and A/R 50 the copressor side with a "p" trim; what the heck does that mean. turbos confuse me, lol
Enjoy life while you can, because you only have one shot. So go BIG or go home.
thanks for all of the info guys. i finished it all. pretty fast, a lil hard to contol. lol. still need to have it retuned by John Higgins. spins through all of 1st, 2nd, 3rd, & half of 4th gear before i catches traction. but i also just lost 3rd gear and snapped an axle on 2 different nights. sucks.
Enjoy life while you can, because you only have one shot. So go BIG or go home.
