Made from American steel, eh? Got a Canadian model, eh?
hyuk!
yes they are made in america. THE difference they make is so awesome. Stage 2 and 3 are being developed too should be awesome!
The SHO guys swear by these. I'm definately planning some for the IRS setup.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
I don't think it would be worth its weight. Also, these are not the first steps in making a roll cage like the auction claims they are. Not to mention, "Spike" needs to learn how to weld.
ah i welded those on for picture purposes. The reason you beef up the subframe of a unibody car first when your putting in a roll is so you can tie into it and have a nice sturdy foundation. The difference they make is real. You will love stages 2 and 3. the SHO guys i dont believe have that option.
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Zach wrote:I don't think it would be worth its weight. Also, these are not the first steps in making a roll cage like the auction claims they are. Not to mention, "Spike" needs to learn how to weld.
Now, I don't know how well they work for Cavaliers, but I know that they work WONDERS for Camaros.. they work a ton better than a strut tower bar, they stiffen the car up greatly, and do not allow the body to twist in tight cornering. I don't have a set yet on the Camaro, but that is going to be my first suspension mod.
1983 Camaro Z28
They work wonders on RWD cars because they're best used to control torsional rotation of the body, not flex (and most of them have some sort of "X" designed into them, not just a straight tube). In FWD cars, they make a negligible difference, especially on a well set up suspension. I've talked to SHO drivers about suspension issues they have, and the biggest problems I hear about are improperly matched strut/spring combos, which could be band-aided with these. I guess it all comes down to wether or not you actually want to properly tune your suspension.
Even if they do work best on a RWD car, they can also help stiffen the rigidity of the vehicle alot, and the difference I think would be noticeable, even in a Cavalier. It would definitely help the car corner in Auto-Xing or similar.
1983 Camaro Z28
If you autocross and you put these on I'm fairly sure you go straight to Streed Mod. Nobody wants to be in SM with a cavalier
Weight is the biggest thing holding the cavaliers back in autocrossing and I don't think putting 40+ pounds of steel as a band-aid along the frame rails is the best use of weight.
Zach wrote:If you autocross and you put these on I'm fairly sure you go straight to Streed Mod. Nobody wants to be in SM with a cavalier Weight is the biggest thing holding the cavaliers back in autocrossing and I don't think putting 40+ pounds of steel as a band-aid along the frame rails is the best use of weight.
Have you personally ever had any experience with these? Or know anyone who has them? I highly doubt it. As far as i know im the only guy who has taken the time to develop these. If you think they will hurt your times in auto crossing maybe you need to go to skip barber for a few days. I dont think the weight has anything to do with holding back cavaliers. IMHO
funky_monkey58 wrote:Have you personally ever had any experience with these? Or know anyone who has them?
No and no.
funky_monkey58 wrote:As far as i know im the only guy who has taken the time to develop these.
To the best of my knowledge, you are.
funky_monkey58 wrote:If you think they will hurt your times in auto crossing maybe you need to go to skip barber for a few days.
Skip Barber is more for road racing. The Evolution school is better for autocrossing. I'd love to go to either one. However, driving skill and car setup are two completely different things, so I'm not sure how you can draw a conclusion as to my driving skill based on my opinion of your weld-on subframe connectors.
funky_monkey58 wrote:I dont think the weight has anything to do with holding back cavaliers. IMHO
Consider a similarly prepared civic that has about the same horsepower as a cavalier. The civic will be almost always be faster than the cavalier (excluding differences in drivers). Do you really attribute this advantage to an independent rear suspension? I don't. I attribute it to the fact that the cavalier weighs an extra 300 pounds or so.
I'm not in this for a pissing match. I'm here to get word out about my product that i made. To help people like yourselves on the track, and gain better ride for the street. Please stop trying to bash my new product. I have been putting alot of work into making these and developing a higher stage for them. (yes an x cross bracing) but im too early in to have one that fits on all the different forms of exhaust.
funky_monkey58 wrote:Please stop trying to bash my new product.
I'd say Zach has stopped well short of "bashing" to this point. All he has done is express skepticism that your product could result in enough improvement to justify its own weight, when the car has a significant existing weight handicap. A little skepticism is healthy for a new product. This is probably where you should assure us all that the subframe connector "really is that good", and continue extolling its virtues. Getting defensive and telling Zach to be quiet probably won't help to instill confidence in potential customers.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, March 21, 2007 5:00 AM
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Geeky wrote:funky_monkey58 wrote:Please stop trying to bash my new product.
I'd say Zach has stopped well short of "bashing" to this point. All he has done is express skepticism that your product could result in enough improvement to justify its own weight, when the car has a significant existing weight handicap. A little skepticism is healthy for a new product. This is probably where you should assure us all that the subframe connector "really is that good", and continue extolling its virtues. Getting defensive and telling Zach to be quiet probably won't help to instill confidence in potential customers.
I agree with this guy and Zach
funky_monkey58 wrote:I'm not in this for a pissing match. I'm here to get word out about my product that i made. To help people like yourselves on the track, and gain better ride for the street. Please stop trying to bash my new product. I have been putting alot of work into making these and developing a higher stage for them. (yes an x cross bracing) but im too early in to have one that fits on all the different forms of exhaust.
I think if you could find a way to tie the left side and right side together it would definitely improve it's integrity. Again, I'm 99% sure that adding these to a car will bump you to Street Mod within SCCA. Not many people on here are really in to running that class because almost anything is allowed and who really wants to take their fully modified cavalier (turbo, race tires, etc. to extent of the rules) and watch a modified BMW beat you by seconds.
I'm sorry if you feel like I was trying to get in to a pissing match. I can understand how you would be defensive about your project though. I have two pieces of advice for you that I think are pretty good:
1. Find a well respected member of the community to test a set on their car and provide an opinion. Road Magnet came out with a new spring for our car and I was skeptical of it too. Darkstars agreed to test them out and provide an opinion. This method seemed to work well for them as they were having a Group Purchase within a few weeks.
2. Market it towards a different crowd. People running frequent autocrosses will typically want to stay away from this mod because of classing rules. Maybe there are some gains to be had in drag racing with this.
Something that I've yet to see develop is a subframe brace that boxes the front of the engine cradle together and has a couple cross members in an X design. Somebody had talked about making one, but I don't think they went though with it. Also, I think there is some demand for a slim fitting subframe brace(just the bar that boxes the engine cradle in) for the guys with automatic transmissions. This is where I would spend my time developing a new product.
ok, i will be the first to say it...
sean... thanks a ton for creating a new product for our cars. they looks like a real good product and something that would most certainly help in suspension terms.
although i feel the same way as zach when it comes to these vs the weight they add. adding weight to a cavalier is seriously a bad thing, with them being so heavy already, adding anything more just sucks. when i added a mod (ie strut tower bar) i tried to take off something i didnt need to kinda even out the extra weight. (spare tire/jack... entire windshield wiper assebly, steel section of the back seat) things along that nature.
is there any way possible to maybe make the majority of the rails out of aluminum and then bolt on the 2 sections that you have to weld in? idk how much weight would be saved, but i honestly think it would be a good idea.
thanks again, we need more ppl out there like you to help us get these cars goin!
Alright sorry guys for getting a little over defensive. Zach it does look like these will bump you to a street mod class and stages 2 and three that im working on will bump you yet into a higher prepped class. Im really kinda new to the cavalier competition scene. Both of my cars would have to put into into an unlimited class, so I unfortunatly over look somethings once in a while. The ride quality improvement is worth it just for street use even. I'm making an appearance at the Wisconsin meet and will be offering up a set as a door prize there, in may. If anyone is in the minnesota area that would like to be a test monkey with a four door just let me know and we may be able to work something out. I would love to make these out of aluminum but the price would then scare off its benefit. I mean honestly they weigh about 25lbs for stage one. I dont know how much stages two and three would weigh. I honestly think this forum and my business could get along very well and have a very strong relationship. I think by tomorrow evening I will have the talked about stages two and three done if Everything goes well. We are a small business run by three people all of us are co owners. we are just trying to make a go at this.
Well Funky Monkey I really like your frame connectors as I have first hand expirence with them on many a Camaro, and I was going to have my own fabbed up but since you already have done the fabrication how much for a set for a 2000 Z24 2dr 5 spd? How much shipped to Capitol Heights, Maryland 20743 I have cash and will buy a set right now, also what's the difference with stage 2 & 3?
2000 Z24 5spd header & catback for now.
Thanks funky monkey, I'll get them ordered this weekend then from the ebay auction.
2000 Z24 5spd header & catback for now.
if you got a spare set i have an 02 5spd 4door Z to test them on. but i live in ny. only mods so far are ebiach sway bars and baer brakes so it's almost stock.
i dont have them for the four door yet. Don't know anyone around here with one to prototype off of. now if only you were in Mn...
