My points come on a must simpler level. In the Bible there are things that are said to be "out of our understanding". Things that we were never meant to know, and that we won't know until the final judgement. Is mans quest to find reason in everything inevitably headed to a dead end. I for one love to dedate, especially the evolution vs. creationism topic, but in the end it just seems like everything comes down to; well it could be this and here are the reasons why, or it could be this and this is the reasons why. Could it be the fact that even though science is what guides our tangible studies of the universe, but only tells us what happens and not why things happen, why we search for reasons logically outside of science and dabble in to things that we will probably never beable to fully comprehend (Feelings, emotions, Gods..etc). Simply becuase we will never beable to fully measure or study them because they are concept based, and not something that we can physical observe.

I know I am bases this on the Christian God and the Christian Bible, but this thought could still apply to anything that we think in our lives. Love is a great example, or emotions for that matter. We know it is there and that love is real because we can feel it and experience it. Yet we do not know the limits or boundries of it (if it even has limits) because we can't see it, therefore we can't study it. Now, does the fact that we can't study love, ultimately meaning that we can't put a limit on it, mean that we can't comprehend love in it's entirety? If we can't, than could we say the same for intangible things such as God, feelings and emotions? Futhermore, if we say yes to the pervious questions, then are we truely headed to a dead end in all of our reasoning?

But that is the basis of humanity: To search for the truth. Albeit it the truth about God, emotions, life, death, existence, anything really. No matter what we try to study we are all doomed to a dead end unless we can prove without a doubt that that is the truth we were seeking. Many people don't choose to study emotions because there is little interest in learning the truth about them. We are more driven to learn the truth about our existence and the world around us. And many emotions are beginning to be thought of as chemical reactions cause by various reasons. Say there's a girl you like/love. You think of her and it triggers a memory which in turn triggers a chemical reaction that makes you feel in love. Scent would also cause the same effect. So you could think that love only ends when the chemicals run out or that person no longer triggers those chemicals to react to each other. Which would explain love on a scientific level. But many people don't choose to accept that love could be a simple chemical reaction and believe it to be something more, something of the soul. Which then leads to debates and dead ends. So yeah, we're heading for alot of dead ends if we try to understand emotions, God, and the rest of society for that matter.


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Some people aren't in search of all the answers. I like living by faith, and those things
Gods want me to know, He makes them known. For everything else, I must have faith in. When you put your trust in his Word, He does not falter.


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Some will trust, some will test. I'm the ladder... if I were the former, Id think I were a few rungs short.

I figure that if you leave it up to trust, you miss out on understanding. Certainly there are scads of things we don't understand.... YET. I still think we're too primative a species to understand fully the nature of everything. I mean, there are some people that don't "get" why you don't wear Stripes and Checks...

Seriously, I think we're too underdeveloped mentally to fully comprehend what it is that we're doing. Some people feel the need to prove their might by headbutting another person, just for a goof... I don't think God reveals or conceals anything. It's out there, we just have to find it and figure it out.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

You cannot also speak for others. You have understanding in what you want to have understanding in. Kind of like the quote "You see what you want to see".


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And you don't speak for God either chum, let's not forget that.

Also, at what point did I speak for others in definite terms? Not anywhere in my post. Stop assuming things, read critically, think before you post.

I don't speak for others, just for myself. If you would kindly re-read what I posted, I said "I think" before I stated my thoughts.

I, unlike you, don't pretend to know what someone else is thinking, see, I go by what is said, and what is done. I'd say if you wanted to be taken at all seriously, you'd do well to follow that example.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

.and I quote" ....if I were the former, I'd think I were a few rungs short". You try to be sly about people who have faith and trust and getting away with such ignorance. You sound a few rungs short talking with that close mindedness. My previous comment was in reply to Jive. Gam, you can kick rocks. You may serve whatever god/gods/idols/
etc you desire. And the answer I gave has in no way spoken for God, it is spoken for the Christian in how we deem to know the things that happen in our lives.
I know you speak for yourself, you've said it a million times in this forum. Selfish people speak for themselves, just like they live, for themselves. Gam, keep questioning, I'll keep answering. One love, Jc.


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ARE YOU READY TO RRRUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEE? In this corner we have Ned Flanders stunt double JBODY4JC. In that corner we have Wants a GTO but owns a Grand AM, GAM (The Canadian One). No hitting below the belt and lets keep it clean. Now Geti it on.

Quote:

Which would explain love on a scientific level. But many people don't choose to accept that love could be a simple chemical reaction and believe it to be something more, something of the soul.

This is a very interesting point. Will we ever get to a point where science has taken all of our miracles away but forming theories and hypothesis? I believe that eventhough it's in humanities nature to search for turths, that there is still a little piece of man that longs for the supernatural, the unexplainable.

I mean just listening to your example of emotions beginning to be thought to be just chemical reactions makes me sad in a way (this is not a direct hit on you, I'm just useing your comments as an example). I just find it unnatural to try and form scientic explainations out of something that we as humans are not meant to know the entirety of. It's like the saying "people are scared of things that they don't or can't understand". So we try and make sense out of something that is not comprehencable (emotions..etc). You say people who trust rather than seek to test are

Quote:

Id think I were a few rungs short

. But than you say that

Quote:

Seriously, I think we're too underdeveloped mentally to fully comprehend what it is that we're doing.

.
So if we are to underdeveloped aren't we ultimately going to have to put our trust in something beyond our comprehension.

The great thing about faith is science cannot disprove it. Science can only deny it.
People who reject faith can only spit harmless redicule at those people who live by
a faith/ or faiths. Science is only theory anyways. Doesn't mean its true. People either live by a theory or they live by faith. One person lives by questions, the other by answers, and the rest like are just petty org flamers. They laugh at me cuz I'm different,
I laugh at them cuz their not.



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I'm just gonna throw some thoughts out here, as this is not a large enough space to just throw it all out there:

1) I think the goal of life is improvement of oneself. I want to be a better man tomorrow than I am today, a year from now, and so on. I find the status quo to be unnacceptable. God/Allah/The Creator would not have put us here if all we are to do is eat, sleep, have kids, and pray. Seems like a waste of his time and ours.

2) Yes I believe in an omnipresent power which is the source of all things. I only need to look at the sunrise, or Alicia Keys to realize a deity exists.

3) I think religions as we know them are attempts at understanding life itself and that which is greater than ourselves. However, since these religions are created by men they are subject to change and occasional error.

4) I have integrated aspects of numerous faiths/religions/ohilosophies into my own belief system and personal code. Cultures and religion developed around the globe in response to varying circumstances, and therefore offer unique inights into the thoguhts of others, allowing the oppurtunity to learn and incorporate more into myself.

5) It is said God created us in his image, but I dont believe are there yet. A being of unbounded bower and knowledge would not exist within a coporeal shell. God simply is and is present in all things and is timeless. We have much evolving to do to get there. I percieve the direction of the human race to be towards beings of energy. Star Trekish I know, but its my htought.

6) Science and religion compliment each other. Science gives the ability to understand how the creator works and what we are. Both science and religion say we are all created from a single source. Scienece cannot explain where that source came from or what that is, I believe God is the catalyst for creation.

7) I think matter is simply condensed energy resonating at a lower frequency. As we scientist say, energy is always conserved or changed, from heat to mechanical enrgy, kinetic to potential, etc. I think matter cannot be created or destroyed but changed, ie into energy. As heat is applied to matter, it morphs from a rigid chrystalinne structure to liquid to a disorganized gas and to plasma, which is more like energy than matter. I think as the limits of our technology are expanded, so will our capability understanding of what matter is.

8) As darkness is the absence of light, Evil is the absence of God. We all start with a clean soul, but our actions and decisions drive us down a path towards good or evil of our own creation. On occasion good or evil intervene yielding a child of one persuasion or the other to fight the battle between the two here on earth. Hitler/Stalin/Drakula or Jesus/Buddha/Mohammed.

thats it for now i guess.


What's cooler..than being cool?

Jbody4JC: Science does disprove writings, remember that earth being flat bit? Sun Rotate around the earth?

Also, in response to what you said:

Quote:


.and I quote" ....if I were the former, I'd think I were a few rungs short". You try to be sly about people who have faith and trust and getting away with such ignorance.

Ignorant? Malarchy! I never discounted faith at all. I merely hinted that I'd prefer to have quanitifiable evidence. I suppose I'll have to be more blatant. Difference of opinion, you trust blindly in something that cannot be conclusively proven or explained, I don't. Who's wrong? I never said you were, I never said I wasn't.

Quote:

You sound a few rungs short talking with that close mindedness.

Again, malarchy. I can't talk about other people, because I don't see things exactly how they do. I don't pretend that my experience is all encompassing, you seem to be under illusion that yours is. If you also notice, I didn't force my value system on you, I just said read and think before you cover a thread with mindless drivel.

Quote:

My previous comment was in reply to Jive.

Then learn to address it to people directly.

Quote:

Gam, you can kick rocks.

Hey, Pound sand buddy.

Quote:

You may serve whatever god/gods/idols/
etc you desire.

I serve my own consience, thanks. If there's a God, I'll let him judge me, but thanks for your permission I guess...

Quote:


And the answer I gave has in no way spoken for God, it is spoken for the Christian in how we deem to know the things that happen in our lives.
I know you speak for yourself, you've said it a million times in this forum. Selfish people speak for themselves, just like they live, for themselves.

how can you speak on behalf of others when you are not them? Doesn't matter for whom you claim to speak for, I know a whole lot of Christians that shake their head at your ilk. You certainly cannot speak for me, that'd mean you'd have to see things from my perspective, which is something you're clearly incapable of.

Oh, something else. If you seem to be under the dellusion that you're of a higher standard than I am, ask yourself when the last time you actually did something to help the poor, the sick, or the disadvantaged. I'll tell you what: until you actually know who I am, Don't judge... it's above you. I work for soup kitchens during the holidays, I volunteer at a vet's hospital on when I work evenings, and I'm a big brother in 2 weeks. What was the last thing that you did (other than prayer and attempting to minister) that Christ would do?

Quote:

Gam, keep questioning, I'll keep answering. One love, Jc.

No, you'll keep proving how insipid and blind you are to the reality you live in. Christ asked you to love thyself, love thy neighbour... Notice making judgement calls on people you don't know wasn't included.

Also, the Theory you speak of is based off of starting with what we know, and working towards understanding what we don't know. Faith is another theory (albeit backwards) which works at a conclusion, and has no use for the intervening proof. Some people want that proof because we'd rather have our eyes open. God gave you a brain, it's a good idea to use it once in a while, lest it atrophy.


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And I don't have a Grand Am anymore... It's an Alero now



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

jbody4jc wrote:The great thing about faith is science cannot disprove it. Science can only deny it.
People who reject faith can only spit harmless redicule at those people who live by
a faith/ or faiths. Science is only theory anyways. Doesn't mean its true. People either live by a theory or they live by faith. One person lives by questions, the other by answers, and the rest like are just petty org flamers. They laugh at me cuz I'm different,
I laugh at them cuz their not.

What the hell are you talking about man?

No, seriously... break it down for me step by step... STEP BY STEP.

You're talking non-sense. Spitting out phrases that have no relation to what is being discussed and are only vaguely related to each other...

'People live by a theory or they live by faith'?

Nice false dichotomy.





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i laugh at the fact that Gam, you try to quote scripture, yet you believe emotions (love would have to be included) are chemical processes. Who are you to judge people of faith, saying that you think they are a few rungs short. Gam, judging people. Your words do not inspire any type of emotion, especially love. So quit trying to say I need to love my my neigbor as myself. your not even like me, your the world. You couldn't even show any compassion to that guy Dave who has cancer, before opening your selfish mind and asking everybody if this is the right forum for his ordeal, then you come at me like I'm judging you and your all holy roller, get outta here. God gave me a brain, thats why I'm working on my second degree in college, it doesn't mean that I should believe that when water hit some rocks, life began. No one's judging, you've done that all on your own.


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Hey Jinxed, start from the beginning of this thread and read it from the first paragraph on. God Bless you, Jesus loves you. Oh yeah, I'm not trying to judge you if Gam things i am. Just trying to spread the Word, Jesus is Lord and Savior.


Smile, Jesus loves you!!!!! <><
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"God gave me a brain, thats why I'm working on my second degree in college"

Want a cookie?


What's cooler..than being cool?

jbody4jc wrote:The great thing about faith is science cannot disprove it. Science can only deny it.
People who reject faith can only spit harmless redicule at those people who live by
a faith/ or faiths. Science is only theory anyways. Doesn't mean its true. People either live by a theory or they live by faith. One person lives by questions, the other by answers, and the rest like are just petty org flamers. They laugh at me cuz I'm different,
I laugh at them cuz their not.

Faith cannot disprove scientific theory either, so what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

Science is not all theory by the way. Its mix of law, theory, experiemntation, and research. Science has yielded many FACTS which previously only had religious explanations. This doesnt mean God/Allah/Shiva/Gotama dont exists. Science has wholes just like religion does. IMHO, if you objectively blend the two they compliment eachother and fill the gaps.


What's cooler..than being cool?

jbody4jc wrote:. Who are you to judge people of faith, saying that you think they are a few rungs short. ....... So quit trying to say I need to love my my neigbor as myself. your not even like me, your the world. ........., it doesn't mean that I should believe that when water hit some rocks, life began. No one's judging, you've done that all on your own.

I think Matt was saying he couldnt put blind faith in something which is unquantifiable, there fore he would be a few rungs short of fulfilling his obligations in terms faith. He wasnt saying Christians are a few rungs short.

Even if Matt isnt like you, Jesus teaches you should love him all the same. - For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? - So play nice.

Evoltuion theory is a bit more involved than your Chia Pet model.


What's cooler..than being cool?

Quote:

i laugh at the fact that Gam, you try to quote scripture, yet you believe emotions (love would have to be included) are chemical processes.

Sorry man, that was me that said emotions could be chemical processes. GAM never mentioned anything about it.


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jbody4jc wrote:You couldn't even show any compassion to that guy Dave who has cancer, before opening your selfish mind and asking everybody if this is the right forum for his ordeal, then you come at me like I'm judging you and your all holy roller, get outta here.

Give it a rest Mr.Holier Than Thou. If you dropped that attitude maybe you'd get more respect on here. For the record he might have cancer or he could just be BS'n us or the doctor screwed up in his diagnosis.

97icecold wrote:1) I think the goal of life is improvement of oneself. I want to be a better man tomorrow than I am today, a year from now, and so on. I find the status quo to be unnacceptable. God/Allah/The Creator would not have put us here if all we are to do is eat, sleep, have kids, and pray. Seems like a waste of his time and ours.

I couldn't agree more, and if you can't improve your life anymore improve someone else's.

I think matt was implying that people having a certain faith based on religion, he believes to be a few rungs short. Thats just how I took it. You may see it otherwise.
Now, Spike J, if I said I have respect and love for you and the same for matt, which I do, would you take it as that or would you just look at this as trying to chalk up some arrogant self rightous points on my behalf, which I can see most on here have already judged me for, most who I've yet to even chat with. Even matt has said there is no emotion in what we write so why try to express that emotion in writing. I'm not throwing forth an atitude, its just words. You take them for what they are and you decide what they mean to your situation.
I don't speak as God, the only people who make believe that is you spike J, and matt. I've never said I spoke for God. You may take these words whatever way you want and twist them, which you and everyone have done and will keep doing after I write this anyways. I could tell you that I'm always trying to improve my life, and do selfless things, but why? its not improving your situation, so if I try to help you, don't take it as I got my life 100% straight in order. The only thing you make it about is me, i've always contended that it's about God. I still have to let you know that we are all sinners, and we still need Jesus as our Lord and Savior. I say for me, but I also must say to you, or I wouldn't be honest to who I am, a Christian. If these words hurt your train of thought, I apologize. Peace and God BLess SpikeJ and Gam.


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Jbody4JC:

Okay.. Before you spout off again, or og off half-cocked, read, and digest.

- I don't have it in for you, or anyone that holds a religion dear to their heart, because of religion. It's self-riteousness, and arrogance that sprouts out in your posts (not always mind you), that rubs my fur the wrong way. State your ideas, but understand that they're not the definitive. You have to understand that >most< people like to think they can think for themselves, and having someone push their ideas isn't appealing, I'll say for myself, I find it offensive, because everyone has been wrong SOMETIME. Put it this way, A Catholic Priest (who is also an uncle of mine) and Nun (a cousin) who are both well versed in theology (my uncle actually has a Theology masters degree from St.Paul University in Ottawa) understand that there are flaws in Catholic and Christian Dogma, as well as they understand a lot of the reasons why the Bible was altered from inception... yet they choose to believe anyhow. Why? Faith. I respect faith, it's ignorance I have a problem with.

- Second, you have, and continue to go on being judgmental. I've pointed out several memorable posts, and passages in the past that have shown your judgmental nature (need I dredge up the Islam is evil and the enemy of America thread), and yet you still claim that you are not, and that you have love for others... This is not only proven as apocryphal, but also hypocritical.

- Third: I said it's hard to convey emotion through text. If I tell you to pound sand, I think you get the overtone unless you're horridly bent.

- Fourth, you don't respect me at all. I know it, it's plain as the nose on your face. You have little respect for ideals and opinions outside your own, much less give them consideration versus your own belief system. I said it before, God gave you a brain, (tired isn't it? start thinking outside a religious belief system, its liberating if nothing else) and you oughtta really use it. If for no other reason than to consider you might be missing some pieces to a puzzle.

-Fifth: If the guy you're referring to is the one in <a href="http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=24908&t=24908">this post</a>, Basically, I admit, I'm anal retentive. I like seeing things in a nice and orderly fashion. I don't get why the post was put in WF, but since it was, I said congrats... did you read? Also, I said that if brit doctors suck so bad that they're giving incorrect diagnoses with the severity of CANCER, he could get his blood tested for a small fee at a clinic in North America if he'd like. Unless you missed it, cancer isn't a small problem, and in infants it's pretty much untreatable... If you knew much about pediatrics (my mom's a registered nurse, I didn't read winnie the pooh when I was a kid.. do the math) you'd know that infantile cancer, unless diagnosed and treated extremely early, is pretty much a death sentence.

-Sixth: yep, we're all sinners, and some of us chose to pray for forgiveness, and some chose to work for it. Which one is wrong? I dunno, unless you lead an entirely pious life, and abstain from sin completely, you're probably going to purgatory, at best. Hey, if I see you in limbo on the way down or up, Cheers, eh?


Now.. for the rest of you sinners

James:
I don't think emotions are a chemical process, I think that the chemical process is a by-product of them. Emotions are a part of mental hygene, if my psych I class serves me. Thanks for straightening that bit out about the misappropriated quotes though.

97Icecold:
You're right in that I find it very hard to put blind faith in anything that is not quantifiable. I do, however, trust that the earth abideth forever (as long as we don't royally screw things up) and that the sun will shine tomorrow, and that as I live, so will I die, and beyond that, I figure that everyone's shooting craps. Faith in a greater power, it's hard to say because I know I vassilate between agnostic beliefs, and aetheism. I wish I could just trust easily sometimes, but I'm not given to it.

Also, the theory of evolution discounted the bible, but, since genesis wasn't written as a testament of a time by a person of that time, it's more or less a story of great conjecture. I also find it interesting that in it, Man was the giver of life (ie. Adam's rib gave Eve a body)... Not woman.. I guess that nature had nothing to do with the bible.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

...and me having been out...

Alright, i see fundamental faults with Religion and science. Mainly this: Religion mostly says that it's in the hands of some other concept larger than we are, and science mostly says that anything not-provable doesn't exist (except from people high-up in the science community).

Kinda like at one point how Religion only let priests see the bible...

I look at it like this, the answers you see are only going to be explainable to you--since both Religion and Science deny the existance of ghosts. However, having expienced them, i know that they exist, but i can't prove it--mainly because the people that don't WANT to believe in their existance will refuse to see any evidence they are given and try to make excuses.

Hence, everything is perception: It's how JB4JC's method of belief is a few rugs short to GAM, and vice-versa.

However, neither is adherently wrong unless they try to impose their way as right and all others as oblivious.

Anyhow, to make a circle into what Jive is saying: How are the things not comprehensible? How do you know that there are not people out there that comprehend it already? After all, there are how many genes that we don't yet know what they do--could some of them be for tepeathy, astral projection, psionics, and psychic ability? I can't answer that, but you're taking all humans on the same level--which we are not.




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Gam, have you ever heard the term "agree to disagree". it doesnt mean you don't have respect for people. you need to accept the fact that people do get along with differences. I have respect for you, even though evolutions a lie, Jesus is the Savior, and you think you know it all and you believe everyone thinks like you. Since the blind lead the blind, and I'm so full of ignorance, you can live for you, Only time shall see to it that truth be judge. I don't want to have to say I told you so, but I can wait in hopes before then you come to know Him.


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Quote:

Gam, have you ever heard the term "agree to disagree". it doesnt mean you don't have respect for people. you need to accept the fact that people do get along with differences. I have respect for you, even though evolutions a lie, Jesus is the Savior, and you think you know it all and you believe everyone thinks like you. Since the blind lead the blind, and I'm so full of ignorance, you can live for you, Only time shall see to it that truth be judge. I don't want to have to say I told you so, but I can wait in hopes before then you come to know Him.

Evolution is not a lie. It has not been 100% proven or disproven. YOU believe it's a lie. JESUS is not my savior. He is YOUR savior. It's one thing to stand up for your faith but to include the beliefs of everyone else in your statements is just ignorance. I can't wait to meet "Him" so we can kick back and talk about what "He" thinks about humanity and people like you, me, and the rest of the world. If he can't do that he's got something stuck up his @$$.


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