Should she live or Die?

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House Panel Seeks to Keep Schiavo Alive
Fri Mar 18, 7:17 AM ET U.S. National - AP
By JESSE J. HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Working against the clock, House lawmakers tried to prevent doctors in Florida from removing the feeding tube Friday from a severely brain-damaged woman.

In a two-pronged approach, a House committee was issuing congressional subpoenas to stop doctors from disconnecting the tube, while an attorney for the parents of the woman, Terri Schiavo, said he would ask a federal judge in Tampa to block the removal and review the actions of state courts.

Such habeas corpus appeals seek to require the government to justify its actions.

"We are going to ask him to issue a stay because in this case, state action would be used to end the life of an innocent, disabled woman," the attorney, David Gibbs said.

Police in Pinellas Park, Fla., meanwhile, readied for the hundreds of protesters expected to show up outside Schiavo's hospice as the hours slipped away before the scheduled 1 p.m. removal of her feeding tube.

The Florida House on Thursday passed a bill 78-37 to block the withholding of food and water from patients in a persistent vegetative state who did not leave specific instructions regarding their care. But hours later, the Senate defeated a different measure 21-16, and one of the nine Republicans voting against indicated that any further votes would be futile.

In a last-ditch attempt to stop the court-ordered removal, a House committee on Capitol Hill here decided early Friday morning to start an investigation into Schiavo's case and issue subpoenas ordering doctors and hospice administrators not to remove her feeding tubes and to keep her alive until that investigation was complete.

The effort by the House Government Reform Committee (news - web sites) came after lawmakers in both Washington and Tallahassee failed in attempts to pass legislation to keep her husband, Michael Schiavo, from having the tube pulled despite heavy lobbying by Schiavo's parents.

"This inquiry should give hope to Terri, her parents and friends and the millions of people throughout the world who are praying for her safety," House Speaker Dennis Hastert, Majority Leader Tom DeLay and Government Reform chairman Tom Davis said in a joint statement. "This fight is not over."

The Government Reform Committee is the same committee that forced Major League Baseball players and officials to testify Thursday about steroid use.

It was not immediately known when the subpoenas would be delivered to Schiavo's hospice and doctors, or whether the Florida health care providers would recognize them. A possible penalty for not recognizing the subpoena is to be held in contempt of Congress, a GOP leadership aide said.

"Everything is a longshot," said Gibbs, attorney for Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler.

But several last-minute legal avenues were being tried, such as the habeas corpus appeal, which is commonly used in death penalty cases.

The Florida attorney general's office usually defends the state against habeas filings. A call to the office late Thursday for comment was not immediately returned.

As part of the last-minute flurry of activity, the Florida judge who approved the withdrawal of food and water from Schiavo denied a request from the state to keep her alive. The state appealed that decision to the Florida Supreme Court (news - web sites), which promptly dismissed it. The U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) also denied another appeal.

At the White House, President Bush (news - web sites) left little doubt where he stands.

"The case of Terri Schiavo raises complex issues," he said in a statement. "Yet in instances like this one, where there are serious questions and substantial doubts, our society, our laws and our courts should have a presumption in favor of life. Those who live at the mercy of others deserve our special care and concern."

His brother, Gov. Jeb Bush, long has supported the parents' efforts and urged lawmakers to act before it was too late.

Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped because of a chemical imbalance, and court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, says she told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents dispute that, and say she could get better.

The court found that it was Terri Schiavo's wish not to kept alive in her current state and issued an order to remove the feeding tube Friday. Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, wouldn't comment on when and how the removal will take place or whether Michael Schiavo would visit his wife before it happened.

Doctors have said it could take a week or two for Terri Schiavo to die once the tube that delivers water and nutrients is removed.

I understand where her parents are coming from but this is no way to live. Let her die, I'm sure if she had the choice that's what she would want, instead of living the rest of her life as a vegetable. Of course leave it to the gov't to waste OUR TAXPAYER money on this.

shes lived her life like this for years....
it is no way to live, her body may be in the hospital bed, but her soul/spirit is gone
legally it is up to the husband

I'm sure it's a very difficult descion that both her husband and parents have to face. Bottom line i think it's time for her to go i think her husband has made the right descion and her parents need to rrespectthat. Because when she got married she no longer belonged to her parents but to her husband( and he belongs to her. Don't know if that makes sense). It shouldn't be up to her parents but her husband.

In this case, she has no hope of recovery, she's existing, but whatever was in her brain is gone.

Let her die.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I say let her die. She's not going to recover so what's the point in letting her live? Like her mother really wants to keep visiting someone who can't talk to her. Oh wait, her mother just asked Bush and Washington to "Save my little girl".


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GAM (The Canadian One) wrote:In this case, she has no hope of recovery, she's existing, but whatever was in her brain is gone.

Let her die.

I'm more than less "Pro-Life", but Matt explained exactly how I feel. The whole thing is pretty unfortunate.

that why u sould do a will so stuff like this does'nt happen

there was no physical evidence that suggest she actually wanted to die if she was like that. And the husband did'nt even mention that until she was a veggie for 4 years. He got a lawsuit from the insurance company for like 50 million because he said he would have to keep her alive for 50 years, this was early on in the ordeal. And he wants the body creamated immediatley so there will be no autopsy.

And who are we to say she won't come back? she showed signs of life when her parents came to the hospital. she would sit up and murmur. It is not my or any of our place to say "Oh kill her, she should die" who the hell do you think you are? God?

Just because I would'nt want to live that way, which is easy for us healthy living people to say, I'm not gonna sit here and say "Just kill her, she is worth nothing"

The husband just seems like an @!#$. In it for the money.


Steve Webb


My other car is an interceptor.

If "God" wanted her to live she would live without the tubes.

The doctor's all agree that she has little brain function.

She has been in a vegatative state for over 10 years. Her muscles must be atrophied by now.

No we are not "God", but what if she is screaming in her head saying "let me die this is no way for me to live!!!!" No one can hear her and are only antagonizing her by keeping her alive.

We have no way of knowing. Her husband loves her and if he had this conversation with her only they would know.

As for autopsy, who cares, does itreally need to be done, she is in a hosptial for how ever long any test that could have been done ave been done short of weighing her heart and brain.


I just hope that if something suddenly happens to me as I am young still (24) my husband will know what I would want and my parents would respect that.

I personally think the parents are the ones being greedy. They ae being selfish as they do not want to loose their child but there is nothign they can do for her. It is pure selfishness.

I just have a question:

Who would want to live like that?

I mean, seriously, who would decide that they want to be a vegetable sustained only by a "nutrient" tube.

Sanctity of life my ass. If we forced someone normal to live like that, it'd be considered torture.

I don't mean to sound like I'd be cruel, and I know it wouldn't be an easy decision if I were actually in that situation, but as a parent, if all else had failed, I'd pull the plug on my child.

They are being selfish...if she was actually dead, then they'd have to deal with the finality of it. This way, they're hoping they'll outlive her. I don't think a parent should ever have to bury their child, but life (or the lack of) has to go on.

I was listening to 890 AM(Chicago) around noon. The host, I do not know her name, said that about 50 (i think it was that many) neurosurgeons have said that the "expert" in this case has diagnosed her without enough information. They did not do an MRI or a cat scan even.

Also, the husband sued for a lot of money for "her therapy and rehabilitation". There was not one time that he spent any of that money on her. He has since remarried and has two sons. She has a lot of money in a mal-practice lawsuit.

The problem I see is that it does not seem that he cares enough to be the guardian. Because of his neglect to try to help her, I would say, she will be allowed to be euthanized if the husband will submit to a charge of manslaughter. He is entitled to nothing for not loving her.

If the above is true, I think he should have no say t all. As for her life, she was never administered any therapy to try to recover so no one knows if she could recover. With that chance never taken, there is no reason her life should be ended.

Uh, well on to the whole "we are not gods" if they would have never used the feeding tube she'd have passed away long ago...

I can see both sides to this.

You must also think, what if she is really in there and can sense everything and see just can't respond. Pretty humane to just starve somebody to death for 2 weeks. At least criminals on death row get a more humane way to die....lethal injection.


Josh
SLK 32

"who the hell do you think you are? God?" - No. Think about it LOGICALLY. Once ARTIFICIAL life support is removed, just who's hands are her fate solely in? God's hands. Technically, putting anyone on life-support in the first place is "playing God." Taking them off is not paramount to killing them, since in fact, if God wishes them to live, and so they will, if God wishes them to be healed, they will be healed with or without mans intervention via life support.

Now as for the woman in question.

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there was no physical evidence that suggest she actually wanted to die if she was like that.

No sh!t Sherlock, she doesn't want to die. In fact, she doesn't want anything. Vegetables do not want anything. You must have sentient thought to "want," and that is simply not something she is capable of.

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And who are we to say she won't come back? she showed signs of life when her parents came to the hospital. she would sit up and murmur.

Wake up. She is a vegetable, short of a miracle direct from God, WILL NOT COME BACK EVER!!! (and IF God DOES want to bring her back, he doesn't need our help to keep her alive)

As for the starvation thing, again - Vegetable. You are still assuming she is still a human in all capacities. But that part of her is already dead. Just a shell remains, living(in a biological sense) and nothing else. She can not suffer any more from this than can a flower denied soil, water and sunlight. The capacity to feel such things is dependent on a properly functioning brain. To be fair I say just pull the feeding tube, and bring her food everyday, if she eats it on her own(don't hold your breath)she lives, if not, nature takes its course...

Do not forget what the brain truly is, an highly complicated electronic device. If your motherboard begins to malfunction, even a small part doesn't work, the mother board is no good, and cannot function as it should, short of a electronics repair shop, it never will again, and there is NO COMING BACK(for either the brain or your motherboard)(and to clear up any confusion, the brain does not fix itself - brain damage IS permanent). Now the only thing her brain can really still do is keep her breathing and her heart beating, but this is all done in the reptile part of the brain, not the part that we use to think. So she has almost the capacity of a lizard, and wow she can grunt(thats a pretty simple muscle control reaction). I'm sure a lizard w/ vocal cords could do the same. Seriously. And I must ask just one thing... if a portable Cd player that can still spin the disk, but cannot produce sound - does the Cd player still work?



I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?

Does it happen to others where it seems as if people skip over your posts before they reply? Seems to happen a lot. Bastard king responded to some arguments but not to the details that I raised about the so called "expert" and the husband who never let her try to get better.

All this talk of God. If he wanted her to die, she would be dead right? To imply that man can keep a person alive that God thinks should be dead would go against a perfect God. Maybe this was a test for the husband and for humanity. He failed miserably and humanity is still pending. What if God's intentions are that she get help from family and friends and that the husband to be shown for a piece of garbage.

The fact is, what if she is not religious at all? If she believes there is no after life, reincarnation, or anything, why would she want to die? With the information I said earlier, there could be a chance that she can get better.

1. Many nuerosurgeons claim the "expert" imporoperly diagnosed Teri.
2. The husband sued for moeny for her rehabilitation but never had her in therapy for even a day.
3. He moved on rather quickly.
4. She has a lot of money from a mal-practice suit.
5. Get a living will.

1. Many nuerosurgeons claim the "expert" imporoperly diagnosed Teri.
2. The husband sued for moeny for her rehabilitation but never had her in therapy for even a day.
3. He moved on rather quickly.
4. She has a lot of money from a mal-practice suit.
5. Get a living will.



1. There is more than 1 expert, and if these neurosurgeons say that they have inproperly misdiagnosed, then why do they not attempt to diagnose her.

2. Is there financial statements indicating that this is true, yes he got money for rehab but who has proof that he did not spend anything on that or was he just supplementing what he had already put out.

3. From what I had read, he married his new wife in 1998 - correct me if I am wrong but she would have been the vegetable that she is for over 8 years before he got remarried. I am sorry if you think 8 years is quick but just TRY to go thru even one year and feel how long that really is with this situation.

4. Yes, she does have money and now that she is no longer married, no one has any rights to the money. What good does that do other than pay her hosptial bills.

5. Was this a suggestion??? People do not think of these things as young as she
is/was when this first happened.


Now as for therapy being conducted, why has it not been, why has no one done anything, why have the PARENTS that are so concerned about not ending her life, insisting on paying for this treatment for their child, they are only just keeping her alive for their own greediness.

This lady should have been off life support over 10 years ago, this is no WAY for someone to be in life for 15 years.

I still say if you need machines to live, you're not alive...and if there is one thing that this world--and God for that matter guarentees always, it's the right to die.


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and if there is one thing that this world--and God for that matter guarentees always, it's the right to die.

Apparently Congress don't think so. on that note I pose a new question:
What do you think about the government's latest involvement?
I believe the government overstepped the boundaries and should not meddle in personal affairs such as this. This is for a family to decide not some polotician whose motives are questionable at best. What's next they going to decide who can have children and who can't?

Steve Webb wrote:there was no physical evidence that suggest she actually wanted to die if she was like that. And the husband did'nt even mention that until she was a veggie for 4 years. He got a lawsuit from the insurance company for like 50 million because he said he would have to keep her alive for 50 years, this was early on in the ordeal. And he wants the body creamated immediatley so there will be no autopsy.

Well, I haven't read all the goings on regarding this, but I'll bite here: They both have lived through enough. He's moved on with his life, and she has been in the same state for the last 15 years or so. Irrespective of the insurance, keeping her body alive for another 50 years is futile, even if she regained any moadicum of mental capacity, she'd still be atrophied, and dependant on constant care... that's not living.. it's existing.

Also, I think that the county that she lives in requires an autopsy for every death that occurrs in a hospital. I might be wrong however... it wouldn't matter either way, the cause of death would be known... Ketosis due to acute starvation.

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And who are we to say she won't come back? she showed signs of life when her parents came to the hospital. she would sit up and murmur. It is not my or any of our place to say "Oh kill her, she should die" who the hell do you think you are? God?

No, it's not "KILLING HER" it's allowing her to die naturally.

Now here's the thing, Schiavo is Cortically brain-dead, meaning she has no function in the areas that house the non-reflexive motor functions, thought and reasoning areas of the brain. The EEG's that she's had have been pretty much flat... what little there was was indestinct from the noise in the rest of the area. Also, physically, there was massive trauma, the neural pathways were not just interrupted, they were severed and starved of oxygen-rich blood for enough time that the pathways and neurons cannot regenerate. The signs of life (the sitting up and murmuring) weren't voluntary, the last time she was examined by EEG, they were the equivalent of low-grade seizures, or electrical storms within the damaged motor control areas.

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Just because I would'nt want to live that way, which is easy for us healthy living people to say, I'm not gonna sit here and say "Just kill her, she is worth nothing"


The husband just seems like an @!#$. In it for the money.

What you or I want is immaterial, and unfortunately, she didn't have the foresight to prepare a living will. In this case, all decisions regarding her health, well being and finances needed to be made by her power of attourney, which is her Husband. If he states that she didn't want to live like this, who are you or I to question it? Her parents are not respecting her wishes, in that case. Now, put it out to poor planning, or whatever, there is no estate for him to inheirit, the Insurance money will not cover the cost of her care for 15 years, and he has basically got no re-course to sue the parents or the hospital for wrongful (prolonging of life or) death because he ordered her feeding tube to be disconnected.

I don't see how it is that he benefits from the money when the costs of looking after her medical bills have fallen on him, and if she does die, he has to repay the parents as care givers.

Moonlight Fantasy:

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The fact is, what if she is not religious at all? If she believes there is no after life, reincarnation, or anything, why would she want to die? With the information I said earlier, there could be a chance that she can get better.

Well, that's a point of conjecture, but, I'd like to know which neurosurgeons first, are fully abreast of the situation, and second what these 50 surgeon's names are. I haven't heard about her main doctor, but when 3 neurologists and brain surgeons that had actually examined her, say she's cortically brain dead (I remember from 20/20 a few months ago when this was last on the news) I'm inclined to agree.

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1. Many nuerosurgeons claim the "expert" imporoperly diagnosed Teri.

Again, who? names... here's the other thing, there wasn't just one, there have been three, at the family's behest, and they've basically stated she can't be helped because the centres in the brain that are responsible for voluntary motor function, speech and thought are too far gone.

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2. The husband sued for moeny for her rehabilitation but never had her in therapy for even a day.

Interesting, I would think that if 3 doctors are unwilling to proceed, it'd be a hint. Suing for rehabillitation (depending on when, he's obligated to seek out help when he can, and didn't her family have a hand in that also?)

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3. He moved on rather quickly.

After 4 years? I don't blame the guy... he's been in a fight with the parent's for a long damned time over her fate. I figure I'd have moved on if there was no hope, and her parent's were kicking up that big a fuss, but then again, if she'd died then and there, when is too early to move on? That's pretty damned judgemental if you ask me.

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4. She has a lot of money from a mal-practice suit.

Haven't read about this, so I can't say, got a link you could share?

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5. Get a living will.

Not a bad idea, but be sure to have an attourney appointed to discharge the living will, and have a friend named as executor... That way, family squabbles won't mess up the discharging. If you want a living will, be sure that there isn't ANY AMBIGUITY. Make sure that there are no phrases regarding "meaningful quality of life" without spelling out exactly what you deem a meaningful quality of life. Also, review that, and every other will carefully at least once every 2 years or before any big purchase.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

bad _kitty wrote:
1. There is more than 1 expert, and if these neurosurgeons say that they have inproperly misdiagnosed, then why do they not attempt to diagnose her.

2. Is there financial statements indicating that this is true, yes he got money for rehab but who has proof that he did not spend anything on that or was he just supplementing what he had already put out.

From what I heard on the radio from the host was that the judge in this case would not allow any diagnosis from other nuerosurgeons allowed in court. There also seemed to be that yes, there were no financial statements that could be shown that he had her into therapy. The family are not the guardians, the husband is. If he does not want therapy for her, then she can not get it.

The husband was said to have 2 ADULT children, which would mean he moved on much sooner than 1998.

The problem I see is that this came from a, for a need for a label, a conservative host. She may be saying rumors and such since I do not have any news links.

And you know, it is no way to live. My thoughts were always that the people who try so hard to keep people alive are selfish. They want that person so bad or to not have to feel the grief of losing them.

And yes, it was a suggestion for people to get a living will. People can read this and will then think about getting one. With something like this going on, everyone should get one as soon as they decide how they want things like this carried out.

Don't take too much stock in what you hear on the radio unless it's the news portion of the radio show. Every DJ has their opinions and sometimes will 'stretch' the truth a little to get their point across.

spikej wrote:

Quote:

and if there is one thing that this world--and God for that matter guarentees always, it's the right to die.

Apparently Congress don't think so. on that note I pose a new question:
What do you think about the government's latest involvement?
I believe the government overstepped the boundaries and should not meddle in personal affairs such as this. This is for a family to decide not some polotician whose motives are questionable at best. What's next they going to decide who can have children and who can't?

And that is why i'm looking at the voting record for this, and adjusting my votes appropriately.




Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

She is not a veg. She responds to people with grunting, and she is looking around. She only has a feeding tube. There are no machines keeping her alive.

Jim

link

here is a link with some info. I was also under the impression she was just a veg.

"Terri's behavior does not meet the medical or statutory definition of persistent vegetative state. Terri responds to stimuli, tries to communicate verbally, follows limited commands, laughs or cries in interaction with loved ones, physically distances herself from irritating or painful stimulation and watches loved ones as they move around her. None of these behaviors are simple reflexes and are, instead, voluntary and cognitive. Though Terri has limitations, she does interact purposefully with her environment."

Jim

OId skewl, Since neither you nor I are in fact capable of diagnosing cortical brain damage, let's leave that to doctors.

Anyhow.. Persistant vegitative state does not mean just laying there and atrophying, her brain does not function at all properly, her EEG is pretty much non-moving, and the "Following limited commands," Trying to "communicate verbally" and other things are not cortical functions, and the interesting thing is that when she responds to stimuli, they're usually in the form of reflexive stimuli like a instep rake (literally when a probe is raked across the instep, she does retract from it, but everyone does.. it's part of muscle programming) and the grunts etc. that she emits when trying to communicate verbally are also part and parcel of being moved (again, not of her own accord.) If there is more information available, like a CT scan or even a doppler CT scan, I'd like to see it. I'm going by what I've read and seen, and I frankly don't think after watching a video her parents prepared for presentation to a court, that she's "there" at all.

Again, I'm not a doctor, but I doubt that she'll ever recover to even the state of a developmentally challenged individual.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I have this experience first hand... I understand what it is like to go through something like this... my mother died of cancer last july... it was in her brain, you could slowly see it eat away her abilities, yet even after 7 months of slow slow suffering you could see the love in her eyes... she was in a vegative or whatever the hell u wanna call it state... yet there was life... even in that kind of state she held a rosary to her death...I say let the woman live, since it is our right as people to ensure the persuit of life we should try to continue on her life the best we can...