This is something I'm thinking about--what are some things you think should be constitutional amendments?

This is one that I've came up with:

The government an only call the draft when the United States is currently engaged in a major war, and then only when the military is understaffed. Further, the draft will apply to both males and females.

This may not apply now, but it sure as hell would have helped during Vietnam.
your thoughts on things that should be amended to the constitution.


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That would have meant no draft for Vietnam at all. It wasn't a war (that would be illegal), it was a "policing action".

It makes you wonder... What would the world stage look like if the US stayed out of Vietnam?

Would Castro still be in power if the US hadn't supported Batista?

Would Iraq be a threat if the US didn't bomb the crap out of Lybia?

What if the UN had not gone into Korea?

Hmm...

PAX

gonna have to disagree here, once engaged it is a little late, it takes time to train soldiers no matter what. just saying here's your rifle now get out there would be irresponsible to say the least. what needs to happen id to take the societal teet away from those that feed from it. welfare and un-employment reform out the wazoo, damn near doing away with it. and raise the size of the military, let those that don't want to (and yes i know some really can't, it isn't easy to find a job sometimes) work now decide between maybe lowering their standards (i.e. maybe holding out for that $30 hr job is a bit lofty of a goal) or join the military. end up with less overall governmental overhead and a larger better funded military. this i am sure will not be a popular opinion with many but it is an option, not that it would EVER happen.

oh yeah and if congress wants to hold glorified @!#$ autograph sessions with the major sports associations let them do it out of their pockets and not mine.

tax reform also, make that @!#$ easier to do for everyone.

Actually, hahaha, it would depend...would the government have declared war on n. Vietnam just to start the draft? I kinda think it would have.

The only issue with what you'd propose, ron (although it is a very good idea), is that it would require a HUGE tax hike to pay for it. But in a sense, i do agree. Right now, thoyugh, you have to have a diploma to join--would the military want to fund education for dropouts on the street? it because an almost tax quagmire because the initial payoff would raise things a lot--and you have to figure the political ccut of the tax percentage that will fund a republican ghost war or witch hunt or a democratic booze party and layouts to undeserving projects.

I still will say that if this is supposed to be a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people, then if it's an unpopular conflict (Vietnam), then if the military can't support it's own manpower and the people don't want to fight it, then we shouldn't fight it.


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The main thing I see wrong with Keeper's initial amendment is that the word "understaffed" and the phrase "major war" are open to debate. The government can bend those words to mean whatever suits them best at the time (as they frequently do).

For example, understaffed by 1 person or understaffed by 1,000? Or 10,000? I personally don't see the current Iraq conflict as a war at all, while others see it as fairly major.

(I'm sorry, I'm probably not adding anything of worth to this thread, I am just desperately trying to put off writing a paper about religion in America.)




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You actually make a very good point. there would have to be some definite lines drawn--like saying the military is understaffed by at least 100,000 troops, and that the clearly defined objectives for the war (in this case, ousting Saddam) would have to be unmet.

Either way, the government woulod try to weasel something in, but i'd like reforms to it. Further, i think women should be drafted as well.


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[quote=Keeper of the Light™]Actually, hahaha, it would depend...would the government have declared war on n. Vietnam just to start the draft? I kinda think it would have.

The only issue with what you'd propose, ron (although it is a very good idea), is that it would require a HUGE tax hike to pay for it. But in a sense, i do agree. Right now, thoyugh, you have to have a diploma to join--would the military want to fund education for dropouts on the street? it because an almost tax quagmire because the initial payoff would raise things a lot--and you have to figure the political ccut of the tax percentage that will fund a republican ghost war or witch hunt or a democratic booze party and layouts to undeserving projects.

I still will say that if this is supposed to be a nation of the people, by the people, and for the people, then if it's an unpopular conflict (Vietnam), then if the military can't support it's own manpower and the people don't want to fight it, then we shouldn't fight it.

probably true aboot the taxes, but could be funded by utilizing the same funds now used for welfare both federal and state. the size of the military that this would allow could be large enough to eliminate the reserve component while keeping the national guard components for backfilling the ranks if need be. national guard units would be funded 75% from their home state and 25% federal, any state that does not feel the need to maintain any units will lose certain federal funding. to keep the units up to par they will be held to active standards and graded by a certified training center (NTC, JRTC, White sands......) gross deficiencies noted and federal funding put on hold until deficiencies are corrected. also right now a Good Enough Diploma (GED) will get in so that could be dropped as a requirement pending satisfactory scores on the ASVAB.

the hope would be that certain low income departments would be able to be dissolved also, such as HUD by possibly eliminating a great portion of the unemployed and the refuse to be employed people of the nation. further the pay for congress will be reduced, that's right i said reduced, to no motre than 2x the maximum pay of the highest ranking active officer in the military, with all congressional pay having a similar system to the military as far as raises/promotions go. President keeps his pay.

a greater emphasis on farming, all types especially wind-farming(don't laugh) to try and make even a slight impact on our never-ending need for fossil fuels.

just a bunch of ideas, never get the elected officials to agree on any of this most likely, since it is not a pay raise for them. supposed is the key word in that sentence there towards the end, this is most definitely no longer a nation by the people, of the people, and for the people. the people have been pushed aside, or down however you look at it.

but who the hell am i, just the average american pissant that really in the grand scheme of things is irrelevant as long as i keep paying uncle sam by april 15th every year. this reminds me (taken from bob and tom) , elections would be moved to april 20th, inauguration on july 4th.

please someone pick this apart so that i can attempt to put it back together, only way to fix something right is to know where it is broke.

hey, no worries on that, it's usually us "pissant americans" that have the best ideas bt are denounced because we say things that the fast majority don't like 'cause it would inconveinience them in some way.


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I think that if the government who sends military to war should be forced to commit at least one child to that war.


"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
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Those definite lines that we talk about the govenment will always use against us by giving them the governing power to have that one step on the american citizen.


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Chamillionaire wrote:I think that if the government who sends military to war should be forced to commit at least one child to that war.

Why?

that would make a difference how, more than likely that soldier would never see a lick of combat if they did not want to, unless you consider getting that last bottle before the class VI closes "combat".

i know where your heart is but most soldiers know what they are doing when they enlist and the risks they may take, i would just like to know yor reasoning/justification for this. and if the governments children must serve then i hope you are ready for yours to be right there along side them, in garrison anyways.

RoN mExIcO wrote:

Chamillionaire wrote:I think that if the government who sends military to war should be forced to commit at least one child to that war.

Why?

that would make a difference how, more than likely that soldier would never see a lick of combat if they did not want to, unless you consider getting that last bottle before the class VI closes "combat".

i know where your heart is but most soldiers know what they are doing when they enlist and the risks they may take, i would just like to know yor reasoning/justification for this. and if the governments children must serve then i hope you are ready for yours to be right there along side them, in garrison anyways.

The difference that it would make is that the current and future administrations would think twice before sending troops to war if their children are required to enter that war just the same. A lot of soldiers don't really know what they are doing when they enlist. Do you really think that an 18 year old that's trying to find he easiest way out of mom and dad's house can even fathom losing his life over something he may or may not agree with?
My children will not serve in the United States military ever! I will teach them from the point of understanding until they are grown that the military is not the place for them at all.


"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."

granted a lot of soldiers/kids may not fathom what they are getting into but that is an excuse, they are either in complete denial of what they are going to do or blissfully ignorant of what they have done. just because for aboot 10-20 years there were no major problems and few deployments whatsoever does not mean that the military had become a large daycare for the socially inept. also define a lot. most soldiers do understand what they are doing and that understanding helps them choose the occupational specialty, i.e. if they are more gung-ho they may choose a front line type MOS whereas if they are a bit less thrilled aboot gunning it out with the enemy they may choose something more rear echelon (REMF). to allow the mentality that some people joined for college money, poor them they had to go to war is ludicrous, let them earn their college money. unfortunately some people are disappointed when it comes time for a major deployment and they find out that there cushy pseudo-office job is prophysed out to a forward unit and now they are where they attempted to never be, once again too bad their primary duty no matter what their MOS is is rifleman.

what i was getting at with the legislative offspring made to mandatorily serve was apparently misunderstood so i will elaborate;
by demanding that senators, congressmen.....have their children mandatorily serve in the military seems like a good idea to some with the hope that this system would somehow deter further unfavorable military actions (in the publics eye, whether it is right or wrong) the most likely outcome is that these basically drafted soldiers who have parents in influential places that can get them into one of those cushy slots where they may never see any form of combat outside of a video game, or even better some advisor's position to the coast guard somewhere (not knocking the coast guard at all). meanwhile to keep our PC and fair society now your children will also be forced to serve in the military and i doubt that you would have the pull to keep them from harms way, and don't say i won't let them go because now they will be criminals good going, where they may die just because you thought someone elses child should be put in harms way. if you can remember GW was in the AF reserve and had it pretty nice.

chamillionare i do not know if you were in the military and/or what the conditions were where you were if enlisted/commissioned but i do understand where you come from, just trying to let you know what would most likely happen. these guys/girls if forced to introduce their children to this type of system will try to protect their young just as well as any other parent, however they will have the distinct advantage of power and pull whereas the typical piss ant (read american public) does not enjoy this luxury.

Quote:

granted a lot of soldiers/kids may not fathom what they are getting into but that is an excuse, they are either in complete denial of what they are going to do or blissfully ignorant of what they have done. just because for aboot 10-20 years there were no major problems and few deployments whatsoever does not mean that the military had become a large daycare for the socially inept.

Enlistment is based upon individuality. You can't explain away an 18 year olds mindset when they are trying to get away from abusive parents, poor conditions among many other things kids run from. My brother was an 8 year veteran killed in Iraq. He once told me that the miitary was a good thing, this was before he started researching things about it. Also before he was sent over to fight for something that he didn't agree with. He got my mind correct before he left so that I wouldn't make the same mistakes that he did, so I'm quite familiar with the military since I was also ordreed to go to Iraq but ended up getting a discharge. The Objector clause is there for a reason. Even the military knows that a lot of 18 year olds don't really know what they are getting into when they sign up, so you can't explain someone making a mistake to be an excuse. It boils down to how much of a conscience you have when it comes to military service.

Quote:

what i was getting at with the legislative offspring made to mandatorily serve was apparently misunderstood so i will elaborate

I understood perfectly what you were speaking about. Regardless of whether or not these parents could do naything to protect their kids was not the point of my rant. The point was that if these congressmen and administrations know that their kids are going to have to be placed in some form of danger, they'd be a little more hesitant on sending American soldiers to another country.


"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."

sorry to hear about your brother, where was he stationed at in iraq? i was there for almost a year before i got sent back to have my shoulder fixed. i too think the military is a good thing, however only on paper now, there is entirely too much red tape and political correctness involved that can at times put a stranglehold of unit operations. yes CO clause is there for a reason and everyones personal beliefs/morals/ethics plays a part on their ability to function as a soldier. there are plenty of MOS's that generally do not require any amount of direct confrontations with hostiles, but danger is there no matter what, hell we lost more soldiers the year before deploying to accidents than while deployed.

Here is an Idea. How about no war at all. Oh and before someone tells me that sometimes there needs to be a war, then study up on American and world economics and future projections.

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good luck with that no war at all thing, i wish you the best of luck with it
9seriously i am not kidding) but the only time that will be possible is when the last human dies. or second to last i guess, but probably last.

2 humans living together in harmony? God forbid they're both men.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

ok i got a few things to add, i like the idea of cutting funding to some areas of low income, but you need to be careful how much and who you cut, i agree that those that refuse to work should be given the option of mandatory job placement or military duty, not all of those unemployed are there because of choice, i live in lake of the ozarks, the rent here is very high in most places, i'd have to move 5 towns over to get away from it, right now i live with my parents so that what cash i do bring in i can save for my projects, they dont mind and i dont see any harm in being here since i'm doing things to improve the house. A few months ago i moved my g/f in with me, not because i felt like it but because she has a 2 year old girl, the father is one of the unemployed by choice, he quits jobs left and right because he just decides he doesnt want to work there anymore because joe said he has bad hair or bob said he didnt work hard enough, so she had no support to help the bills, her job of 4 years decided she didnt need to be there anymore, mainly a fellow employee who never liked her became management and decided to fire her since she had the power no warning just fired her, at the time she lived with her mother who expected rent and chores to be done.

She insisted that my g/f get on welfare so that she could be a stay home mom cause thats what the baby needs most according to her, she refused she went out and found a new job, paying more and giving her good hours, her car broke down, fuel pump went out, she had no savings and had to work 2 weeks to save the cash for the repair work, her mother refused to drive her to work, the 2 miles it was from where she lived even with it being on her moms way to work which was her excuse that it was out of the way, so she walked 2 miles to work till she had the cash to fix the fuel pump, 2 days later her mother kicked her out, gave her 15 mins to pack her stuff and locked her out child and all, desperate she found a run down place her father owned he charged her 300 a month for a trailer that i wouldnt let my dog sniff much less have a person living there, tons of mold, dry rot, windows that let air right thru the trailer stayed about 60 degrees even with the heat cranked all the way up all day long, the kid was sick, my g/f was sick, so now she lives with me, shes got a decent job and makes decent money at it and is trying to move out but rent is to high so she needs a program like hud to help her get her own place, she works so hard for everything she's got and 90% of her cash goes towards the child, new clothes, shoes, toys, day care it all adds up fast and theres only so far you can stretch a buck.

the father now pays child support, he pays out 161 dollars every check, my g/f gets 81 a week, that covers diapers, food and alittle extra if the kid needs something, with all that she still cant manage rent on her own.

as for me i've applied at several places locally, i had a 4 wheeler accident 5 years ago crushing one of my vertabra and blowing out 4 discs in my back, i now have 2 steel rods in my back, and life long back problems to go along with it, the last job i had was unloading trucks at wal mart, in the 2 years i've been down here i've had 3 real jobs, 1 i got fired from due to an accident that wasnt entirely my fault, was a situational thing, the other i stepped back from because they were paying me for a job i wasnt as qualified as i should have been, and i didnt feel it was right that i make 8 an hour when i wasnt as useful as some 6 dollar an hour kid they hired in to help around the shop. at wal mart i made it a month on 1200 mg of ibuprofen and some nights a second 600 mg part way thru my shift, just to keep my back loose enough to be able to do the job, so yes i've tried, i now do my own fiberglass projects and body work it doesnt pay yet, but i'm working on that, its not so easy on the spine but my passion for it keeps me moving.

I dont agree with any draft, go willingly or dont go at all, i do feel that any elected official should have a military back ground, having served no less than a 4 year tour of duty, i feel it would give them a better structure and understanding for what they are doing when they declare war on something, iraq is bull@@#t to anyone that served in that war my hats off, none of our troops should be over there period, how can we help what we dont understand? as for past wars if we had left well enough alone korea would still be one country, and would be much less of a threat than it currently is, as well as veitnam being a useless war, i think the true injustice of that war was how our troops were welcomed back home, may that never happen again, its not the troops fault for following orders.

J~

Well, Korea would have been a radical either way... The idea was to push back communists out of Korea because they were Chinese Military with re-inforcements from Korean Communist leagues.

As far as a draft goes, it's not a good idea at the best of times, and at worst, it's prelude to revolution.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

wouldn't that be something, america the megapower brought down by, dahn dahn dahnnn, america the pissed.

you think another country will destroy america? Nope. America will destroy itself if history is any gauge.


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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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I'm with Keeper here, I don't think America will "destroy itself" persay, I believe that America will right itself, I am sure it will be something major, a overthrough of the government by people smart enough to know whats good....Those people that are true leaders but have no needs for politics. The ones that should be leading the country becasue they are capable....

I'm waiting to vote, why? Because I'm waiting for someone to come along because they need to lead, not becasue they want fame and fortune....the first person to come along and run for president but not get paid.....I think they will be the right person...Sorry, had nothing to do with the topic....

I wish for taxes to be simpler...and maybe for the original documents of the USA to be followed....


Everything LOUDER than everything else!!

If there's a major upheaval, if you think about it--there will eb no more USA in the way we conceive it.

If we use all past empires as a guide, the U.S. Will fall out of favor across the rest of the known world (as it';s starting to already) and those territories on the edge of it's territories will begin to secede when they realize that other options are avaliable for their well-being (Alaska and Washington state: Canada comes to mind). As such, current disfavor will spark the international community against them (the enemy of my enemy is my freind), and you might see some intresting nations banding together against the monolithic state--ones that are poised to bring unconventional warfare to the table (see Germanic Tribes vs. Rome). As such, the monolitic empire is slowly losing territory when the people closer and closer in realize that there's nothing to gain by trying to reclaim lost territory for the sake of doing so, and eventually the remaining populace gets sick of the regime and overthrows it. The time after is in chaos and upheaval until another utopia emerges, brings hope of salvation, gains the acceptance of the populace, and begins excpanding it's borders as people flock to it in zeal. It will then reach a point where it's satisfied and the leaders, throwing the utopian vision out the window in a naked powergrab while appealing to the masses by promising them the illusion of security, begins to sow emerging distrust into the populace when a few people begin to see what's going on.

and the cycle continues.

Unless humanity en masse WAKES THE @!#$ UP, this cycle will continue.


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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.