Quote:
Stun guns for everyone? Taser fires up debate
By Miguel Llanos
Reporter
MSNBC
Updated: 12:27 p.m. ET May 4, 2005It wasn't supposed to be this way. When first pitched to police a decade ago, stun guns and particularly Tasers — the brand most widely used — were heralded as a way to deal with violent individuals without killing them.
Police embraced the weapons at first. But over the years, 103 people have died in North America after being shocked with stun guns, according to a review by Amnesty International. Now, Taser International's safety claims are the subject of a federal inquiry and police departments nationwide are reviewing procedures.
Earlier this month, the International Association of Chiefs of Police urged caution and offered guidelines for using stun guns, including training programs for police.
It's against this backdrop, and the fact that its stock price fell by two thirds after a record high last year, that Taser International has launched a campaign to sell Tasers to civilians. It has come out with a much smaller yet more powerful civilian stun gun and is building a national dealer network, starting with Davidson's Inc., a major gun distributor that's the first to carry Taser's civilian model.
But whether Tasers in civilian hands is a good idea is up for debate. Some police worry about civilians misusing them, while Amnesty International wants an outright ban. "It's a patently bad idea," says Amnesty spokesman Ed Jackson.
And some medical experts want more studies to fully determine if an electrical shock can itself be a significant factor in deaths. The documented deaths have involved at least one of the following factors: suspects who were high on drugs or who had heart conditions, and police using batons or other physical force to subdue suspects once stunned. It's not clear if stun gun use played a contributing role given those other factors.
Company's perspective
Taser executives say that a new $1,000 civilian model of the weapon, which like the police version fires two electrically wired darts that deliver 50,000 volts, is safe and will deter crime, not worsen it.
Anyone who's wary about the technology simply hasn't used it or doesn't understand how it works, said Steve Tuttle, Taser's vice president of communications.
To start with, he said, sales of an earlier civilian model introduced in 1994 topped 100,000 and there's been no epidemic of civilian misuse.
Tasers are safer than other stun guns, he said, because they are the only one that can be fired from a distance; others require actually jabbing the recipient.
In an effort to keep felons or anyone on the U.S. terrorism watch list from buying the weapons, Taser's new civilian model requires buyers to register their guns and undergo background checks, Tuttle said.
In addition, the model has a built-in tracking device: 20 to 30 tiny red metal flakes called "ID tags" that disperse when the gun is used. The tags are hard to see, and each tells who the gun and cartridge are registered to. Removing the tags disables the $30 cartridge that houses the darts.
Responding to concerns that stun guns can cause deaths, Tuttle said that "medical examiners are clearing us in a vast majority of cases" and compared such fears to those about pepper spray in the 1990s, before that tool became widely accepted.
Civilian stun is longer
Tuttle expects the new civilian Taser to take off in the 43 states where stun guns can be sold.
Just a bit larger than a cell phone, "it's small enough for people to carry," he said, and it's easy to use.
Buyers get a training DVD that's geared toward showing users, especially women, how to use the weapons in a "non-macho way," Tuttle said. There's also a coupon for a free one-hour training course at home with a law enforcement officer.
The civilian model is similar to what police have, with this key difference: Pulling the trigger on the police version provides a five-second stun. The civilian trigger starts at 10 seconds and can be squeezed several times continuously to get a maximum 30 seconds.
The rationale? Five seconds is enough for police to subdue a suspect, Tuttle said, but civilians need a 30-second shock to allow "them time to escape a dangerous situation" by shooting the Taser and running away.
Amnesty: Ban them
But it's precisely that 30-second capability touted by Taser that most worries Amnesty International USA, which first called for a stun gun ban in November.
Jackson, the Amnesty spokesman, said he has two questions for Taser: "Who has been exposed to a Taser shot for 30 seconds? And would the executives at Taser be willing to publicly expose themselves to 30 seconds?"
Tuttle dismissed the challenge and countered that "many suspects in the field" have been stunned for "more than 30 seconds" without problems.
Amnesty also doesn't buy the argument that the civilian Taser is easy to use.
If the Taser's two darts don't land far apart enough on a target's body, the effect is diminished, Jackson noted. On top of that, he said, "civilians don't get the 16-hour training for police provided by Taser."
As for registering buyers and tracking Tasers, Jackson called the measures "garbage." "There are ways to easily circumvent that deterrent," he said, among them stealing someone's Social Security number and other information to make an illegal purchase.
Police concerns
Stun guns, especially Tasers, are unquestionably popular with police. Taser has sold 130,000 units to 7,000 departments in the United States and abroad.
The biggest issue departments are dealing with is whether some officers are misusing the stun guns by either shocking a person for too long or shocking someone who really isn't violent.
Al Arena, who works for the International Association of Chiefs of Police and helped write its stun gun recommendations, believes the tool is valuable as long as police are properly trained.
But he said civilian Tasers could create a deadly situation in an encounter with police: "If you confront someone with a Taser, does it then end up being a situation where you are authorized to use deadly force?"
California ban?
Government officials have their own concerns.
Arizona's attorney general favors police use of tasers, but worries that some civilian buyers might misuse the weapons if the company continues to market them as "non-lethal." He wants Taser, which has headquarters in Arizona, to drop the claim.
In California, state Assemblyman Mark Leno recently introduced legislation to ban personal use of Tasers after having staff research the weapons for the public safety committee that he chairs.
Independent studies should be performed to "learn exactly how dangerous or how safe this is," he told MSNBC.com.
"We're going to allow weapons to be sold to the public and all we know is what the manufacturer is telling us," Leno said.
Taser "dodged" most of the questions his staff asked the company, he said, and the federal Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating Taser to determine if it misrepresented the safety of its products to increase stock value.
"With all of this background I'm smelling smoke," Leno said.
Taser, in a letter to investors last January, said it would "stand firmly behind" its claims during what it said could be a long SEC inquiry.
The company would not comment further given the inquiry, and the SEC said it does not comment on ongoing investigations.
New study on pigs
Another voice that's joined the debate is the Potomac Institute for Policy Studies, a non-profit group that focuses on science and technology issues. In a new report on stun gun science and policies, it states: "Based on the available evidence, and on accepted criteria for defining product risk vs. efficacy, we believe that when stun technology is appropriately applied, it is relatively safe and clearly effective."
But it added: "We strongly recommend that additional research be conducted" on the potential health effects.
The question for researchers is whether stun guns are a cause of death in some cases and, if so, are precautions possible.
The most significant study is about to get under way. The U.S. Justice Department is funding a test in which Tasers will be shot at pigs, some of which will be drugged with cocaine to mimic a person on drugs. Pigs are being used since their hearts are similar to humans.
Call for standards
The Potomac Institute also urged "industry-driven, government-endorsed standards" for stun guns, noting that "no federal regulative body has asserted oversight" of the weapons. That's partly because they're not considered a firearm.
Samuel Walker, a criminal justice professor at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, has similar concerns.
"Use of Tasers by citizens poses a risk to other citizens and the police," he says. "There are a lot of questions about availability, sale and licensing" that haven't been fully reviewed.
"I haven't thought this through yet," he said, citing the relative newness of civilian stun guns, "but certainly there should be regulations similar to firearms."
"Do we want this weapon available to anyone at Wal-Mart?"
© 2005 MSNBC Interactive
Should everybody be allowed to own a Stun Gun?
Pro's and Cons?
I say only peace officers should be allowed to own stun guns for the time being till more health studies are done. It's a lot less lethal than a gun but it's still lethal and in the wrong hands(Rapists, sexual offenders, criminals etc...) can be used as a device of torture.
theres already enough issues with gun control.....if you start banning less than lethal defense items, then were all screwed....besides a knife can do all the bad things a stun gun can, and theyre legal, same with mace
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
I thought you could get a tazor for relatively cheap? Maybe not the top of the line like what the police use, but still decent quality?
But I say it's kinda bull crap saying that they are too dangerous. For a large part, for every person who got who got stunned, there was one less person getting shot, or beating to a pulp, plus one less officer who was taking out of harms way trying to subdue someone.
Promise that forever we will never get better at growing up and learning to lie
I thought you can make your own taser with a remote control or something.
______________________________________________________________
ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.
Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.
i make mine from disposable cameras thank you very much
that hurts like hell
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that the two things are getting confused here. Stun guns are what you make out of like a disposable camera, you have to actually hold it up to someone to shock them. A taser actually shoots out a pair of darts on cables and the electricity flows through them that way, at a much higher voltage I believe.
I think stun guns should stay available because they are like a knife, more of a hand weapon. Tasers I'm not sure what I think about. Yeah it'd be cool, but I can imagine how many people would get ahold of them that shouldn't
-Chris
a little wrong....taser is a brand name, there are 3 types of stun guns, the regular stun gun, you have to touch it to the target, the air stun gun, thats the 2 barbs with wire that poke your skin and shock you, and the liquid stun gun, it sprays the target with salt water, then shocks it. the most useful one is the handheld stun gun, because the liquid is too big, and the air gun requires reloading.......so the handheld is the only useful one really. all 3 can use the same voltage or different depending on make and model
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
Okay... Mike, I've heard of two of those but not the water one...
Anyhow:
There are prod stun weapons which have 2 poles and must make contact, they usually have a WARN feature that has a large, bright blue arc of static electricity, but that's about it. The WARN feature doesn't stun you, it's the poles underneath it that carry the current. The worst I've seen happen with the WARN is temporary numbness and maybe light collateral burning, like you'd get when you discharge out when trying to grab a door handle or something.
The TASER stun weapon uses CO2 cartridges to shoot a pair of conductive darts into a target's body, and put through about 50,000 volts through the anatomy at ultra low amperage.. (6-10 microamps, any more would kill the subject surely). It sends out the voltage at about 40-50 HZ because higher than that will cause seizures...
The idea is to incapacitate the target.
The deaths that are associated with the Stun weapons are due to pre-existing conditions that the officers may or may not know about. Also, those with somewhat pronounced heart conditions will probably be affected.
I don't like the idea of tasers for the masses per se, mainly because of the standing issues I have with regular weaponry, but also, Tasers only work on a limited range... they're basically ineffective at greater than 10 meters because of the darts' dispersal pattern... also, to reload, you need to usually unclip the end of the gun and attach a new pod. Reload time is about 1 minute....
If you want a PDW, I wouldn't advise that.. That is a better less-lethal weapon for when police are looking to subdue a single visible beligerant. If worse came to worst, I'd say a combination of a pepper jet and a hand stun weapon is a better defensive compliment than a TASER type weapon.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
ouch.....that would hurt a lot GAM.....spray to slow them, shocks to stop them.......thatsjust plain mean man
but it'll teach a lesson
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
True, but you'd still be alive, and buddy would be wondering WTF side of the bed they woke up on so they can avoid it the next day.
Keep in mind, the last time I got into a fight I dropped the other guy before he had a chance to ball up a fist (coyboy boot heel driven into his instep, knee in the testicles and an open palm slap on the ear). If it comes to a point of personal defense, I'm not about to let the other guy have a even chance.
Like I said, TASERS aren't practical in very close quarters... Upon further reading, they actually need about 5 feet of distance to really get effective spread.
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The liquid stun guns are like the super soakers--except the send the charge down the liquid stream. they tend to have a bit better range than a tazer, but are much bulkier and much more danger of collateral damage. The main thing they are looking into that for is vehicular mounting.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Protest crowd control...Keeper, remind me how that kind of stuff goes over with a crowd? (G8 Globalisation protests... *hint*hint*)
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Hey, i'm not defending it, i'm just explaining what they are trying to use it with.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
try this for crowd control
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
heh...
I'll be interested in reading the actual science behind it... It's interesting, but if it's anything like Non-lethal optic interference Lasers (ie. blinding lasers), I'm going to venture there will be a ban extended on them pretty quickly.
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They talk about how police do not use that stuff right. Well the solution is dont run from the cops or fight them and you wont get hurt.
2nd place is the 1st loser
If the solution was that simple we wouldn't *need* police.
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Can you buy the taser refills in bulk? I'm gonna need them in my neighborhood
<a href="http://www.lenkorules.com/"><img src="http://s93165229.onlinehome.us/images/zm/sig/LRDCsig3.jpg"></a>
Lenko: Yeah... they're $600 USD for 3 IIRC, but that's law enforcement use.
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i think landmines would be better for car security for you, lenko
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
that is so freakin cool..........i want one
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
lol... 10000 amperes... that's enough to char-broil a bank vault...
Some sinus discomfort.. yeah... it's called breathing in charged plasma...
lol
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