I found this article and figured I would throw it out there to you guys/gals. As an avid supporter of our troops and finding myself continually disgusted by anti-war protesters I thought this was a nicely written article. It kind of looks at things from the view that the media tries to ignore as they make Sheehan and other protesters look like heroes.........
http://www.nysun.com/article/19074
Being anti-war and pro-troops is not a mutual exclusion.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
I would support the statements made in that article except that I don't believe this conflict will or has served the United States at all.. Sure there may be a secure oil reserve but the political fallout and the emergence of all new enemies because of this conflict offsets any gains made. I cannot support the war effort in Iraq because it was based on lies and deception. Afganastan I can understand, and while I wish it wasn't necessary to be there, it is, and so we must move forward in that arena.
To follow up on what GAM said... With all that said, I appreciate that a soldier is doing one of the most nobel actions possible. Risking your life or perhaps "giving" would be a better term, in service of your country is an action that deserves respect. I fully support the troops, and part of that means not putting them in harms way unless it is for the greater good. The conflict in Iraq is not for the greater good, and in fact has made the world a much more dangerous place, there's no denying that.
Being Canadian, I am satisfied with my governments actions, we are in Afganastan, and offering limited support in the gulf. If I were a US citizen, I would be quite upset with the Bush administration's ability to creat more enemies and make travel outside the North American continent more dangerous. One of our great freedoms over here is mobility, and that is being erroded daily. Speach is no longer free either and that sucks big time.
That said, if I were an American, I would be a Republican and I'd be really angry with my party. Conservatives have traditionally been the ones better at dealing with hard realities, but in this case, they just made it up to start a war.. What a crock of @!#$.
PAX
I thought this would be filled all kinds of bs by now, yet there have been two thought out replies.......wow. I agree somewhat with you guys. As far as support of our brothers and sisters over there....there is no question in my mind they should be treated as heroes....As far as the war is concerned.....I believe some action was necessary , but as to the extent ..who knows? Then again I don't have the education or experience in politics and world affairs to make a good judgement on the war.
However I can relate to having a family member/close friend put everything on the line for a cause that they do/don't believe in because they feel it is their duty to do what their country asks of them. My father served in the Gulf War as a Marine and my best friend who is closer to me than my own brother just finished a year tour in Iraq in the Army. The girl I am seeing came back from Iraq about two months before my buddy after serving a year in the Army. I can't imagine would it would be like to lose one of them to war.
What I also can't imagine is why if you did lose someone close that you cared about, why you would fight AGAINST the cause they fought FOR? I don't understand the protesters sitting outside Bush's ranch who have lost someone. I don't know what they think they will accomplish besides disheartening our troops and making the war look even worse than it does. Do they want our allies to pull out leaving us without support? Do they want the common Iraqi to think we are doing the wrong thing when they hear these stories of protests in our home country? This was my main reason for posting this article. I am interested in hearing what other people think the protests will accomplish........
The Troops are not the problem. A war predicated on falsehoods is.
The idea that Operation Iraqi Freedom is based on actual freedom is a sham. I've posted about this a lot of times, and I'm not going to re-hash what I've typed several times.
Support the Troops, Question your leadership.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
I realize anything to do with Iraq has been beat to death, its just the media's new obsession with all of these protesters.....thats what I was wondering about. I wondered if my conservative, military-family background makes me think that these people should be respected for their loss and for what their family member was willing to give for the U.S., but not made into the huge public figures they are becoming. Especially when they are protesting about something that they don't know about or haven't experienced.
Its like me playing football in high school. Football was my life in school. Everything I did revolved around it. I loved it and it was my "cause" so to speak. What if my mom, part of my own family, started protesting against football in schools because it is to violent and kids might get hurt. I would feel betrayed. Not because my mom protested against the kids playing, but because she and others protested/hated/disapproved of something I was part of. Thats like citizens of the U.S. protesting against the war, something a lot more severe and intense than high school football.
I realize I might be rambling, but does that kind of make sense? Its like the protesters are betraying the troops without intentionally meaning to.................
No, I think the troops would know that there is a big difference from what is being done (ie protesting a president (that never served in combat and has the sac to call himself a War President) at his home)at his home), and what you're talking about... not to belittle what you're saying.
This isn't the same kind of thing as Vietnam. I haven't seen (personally at least) anyone calling soldiers "baby-killers"... at any rate, if I had, I personally don't hold that idea until I see a soldier bayonetting a child in petulance... then I'm pretty sure my beliefs will change.
The focus of the protest isn't the military, it's the fact that the ideas behind the invasion are a sham. Most people can see a fraud when it's in their faces, and can smell it at an arm's length... that goes for military and civillians.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
blueakron04 wrote:
Its like me playing football in high school. Football was my life in school. Everything I did revolved around it. I loved it and it was my "cause" so to speak. What if my mom, part of my own family, started protesting against football in schools because it is to violent and kids might get hurt. I would feel betrayed.
Hey blue,
Where your logic falls apart is here.... when you sign up to play football, you sign up SPECIFICALLY to play football. When you sign up for the military, you don't sign up for combat, you sign up to defend our country. Now, of course, that may mean some combat, depending on your duties.
During Vietnam, people couldn't separate the war from the soldiers. But today, people realize their mistakes. Anti-war protestors don't want the soldiers in combat when they're not defending our country. They don't want these men and women to die for anything less than the most noble reasons.
For a moment, whether you agree with the war or not, let's pretend you don't. The thinking then would be who has the soldiers best interests in mind? You, who wants to bring them home to be safe, or those who don't?
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AGuSTiN wrote:blueakron04 wrote:
Its like me playing football in high school. Football was my life in school. Everything I did revolved around it. I loved it and it was my "cause" so to speak. What if my mom, part of my own family, started protesting against football in schools because it is to violent and kids might get hurt. I would feel betrayed.
Hey blue,
Where your logic falls apart is here.... when you sign up to play football, you sign up SPECIFICALLY to play football. When you sign up for the military, you don't sign up for combat, you sign up to defend our country. Now, of course, that may mean some combat, depending on your duties.
During Vietnam, people couldn't separate the war from the soldiers. But today, people realize their mistakes. Anti-war protestors don't want the soldiers in combat when they're not defending our country. They don't want these men and women to die for anything less than the most noble reasons.
For a moment, whether you agree with the war or not, let's pretend you don't. The thinking then would be who has the soldiers best interests in mind? You, who wants to bring them home to be safe, or those who don't?
Very good point. You could also take it this way though. When I wanted to play football, I was signing up specificallly to play ball(defend the country) but I also knew that there were many risks I would be taking. I could get hurt, not make first string, be on a losing team....there are hundreds of things that could happen to me when I make the choice to play football. Just as there are a hundred things that COULD happen to a soldier/sailor/marine etc.....
I agree with you that most people don't protest against the soldiers and hate them, spit on them such as the case with returning 'Nam vets. But, and maybe its just me having a hard time seeing your view, when people are protesting the war, I don't know if they think about what would happen to Iraq. I highly doubt they would be able to take care of themselves. When members of the parties who are working on the constitution have to order their personal militias to stop killing the rival party's members, not much is going to get done. I want each and every of our soldiers home safely as quickly as possible, but they cannot leave now when the job is unfinished. Doing so would dishonor the almost 2,000 we have lost. I know if I ran into a soldier that perished in Iraq in the afterlife, I wouldn't want to be the one to tell him/her "Well, you know....public approval ratings were down, people were protesting, and we needed to cut some military spending...so ......well....we just had to abandon the cause you gave up the next 70 years of your life, wife and 3 kids for....."
blueakron04 wrote: But, and maybe its just me having a hard time seeing your view, when people are protesting the war, I don't know if they think about what would happen to Iraq. I highly doubt they would be able to take care of themselves. When members of the parties who are working on the constitution have to order their personal militias to stop killing the rival party's members, not much is going to get done. I want each and every of our soldiers home safely as quickly as possible, but they cannot leave now when the job is unfinished. Doing so would dishonor the almost 2,000 we have lost.
Well, there are two trains of thoughts on this and I'm not going to attempt to declare one more valid than the other, because I myself am not sure.
1) Iraq could fall into disarray if we left early. When many war protestors talk about the 100,000 citizens who died (and there's lots of debate about that number), I'm not sure they fully consider how many more would die if we left a power vaccum behind. Fact is, we're already there, for the wrong reasons or not, we should do the right thing now that we've made a mess of things.
2) What if the soldiers in the afterlife have found out they didn't need to die. What if the truth is what many war protestors say it is..the war is about oil, Bush family revenge, whatever... Do you think they would want more of their fellow soldiers to die in a lie?
Many times the most respectful, honorable thing is to simply know when to stop.
Here's an evil example that's only related to the above sentence... you're raping someone. Half way through, after you've already done enough to earn a life sentence, you come to your senses. Do you stop? or do you continue because..hey..what the hell.. won't matter now.
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I'd hand her a meat tenderizer and say "have at it" to my dongleberries.
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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blueakron04
You like the typical (sheep herded republican unable to think for themselves) person that wants to label protestors as liberals or hippies or whatever miss the point totally of what they are protesting. They protest the war and the purpose of being there. They dont protest the troops. Those folks dont have a choice they do as thier told which is noble. But if theres going to be a war, it needs to be for a cause that ppl support which this war isnt. The protest is towards the actions of the government not that of the military.
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Ya see... I support the troops that are there, who are putting their lives in danger... and the ones who have passed on...
I however, do not support the "reasons" we went in there to begin with...
There is a difference...
i dig tha new sig
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
I just wish these people knew what there protesting does to the moral of the troops on the ground. You can protest the pres. all you want but leave the troops alone. Dont tell them they're fighting a useless battle when they're doing what they are ordered to do.
I just don't want to see this turn into another Veitnam by these protesters.
The woman who stated all this crap is a moron. What did she think may happen if her son joined the ARMY ? That he would be sitting safe and sound in the U.S. for his intire 4 year tour ? Its a shame her son died but all she's doing by her protesting is dishonoring his memory and the meories of all who have died in the war. Its a horrible thing that he died but he choose to join noone made him and when he went thru basic and learned how to fight and shoot what did she really think he was taught it for.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
jackalope wrote:I just wish these people knew what there protesting does to the moral of the troops on the ground. You can protest the pres. all you want but leave the troops alone. Dont tell them they're fighting a useless battle when they're doing what they are ordered to do.
I just don't want to see this turn into another Veitnam by these protesters.
The woman who stated all this crap is a moron. What did she think may happen if her son joined the ARMY ? That he would be sitting safe and sound in the U.S. for his intire 4 year tour ? Its a shame her son died but all she's doing by her protesting is dishonoring his memory and the meories of all who have died in the war. Its a horrible thing that he died but he choose to join noone made him and when he went thru basic and learned how to fight and shoot what did she really think he was taught it for.
Sigh, your constant failure to see things from someone else's perspective gets old, man.
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I can see things from someone elses side with no problem. I know that G Dubya is an idiot I don't need to be told that. But you guys never haveing been in the military during war time is that the troops see and hear this stuff and it does have a detrimental effect
on there moral. Thats the only thing I was saying AGuSTiN not the shouldn't protest against the pres. And I think its your failure to be able to see something from someone elses point of view thats getting old , man.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Nooo. Let's start from the top...
jackalope wrote:I just wish these people knew what there protesting does to the moral of the troops on the ground. You can protest the pres. all you want but leave the troops alone.
Who's protesting the troops? No one is protesting the troops, they're protesting the policy of the executive branch. I have sign
anti-troop protests. Show me.
jackalope wrote:
Dont tell them they're fighting a useless battle when they're doing what they are ordered to do.
Why not? They're also being told that people at home love them and want them safe above all else, not fighting (their opinion) the President's unjust war.
jackalope wrote:
I just don't want to see this turn into another Veitnam by these protesters.
No evidence of this occuring. No one is spitting on soldiers in a parade, no one is throwing bottoms at them. Not even close.
jackalope wrote:
The woman who stated all this crap is a moron. What did she think may happen if her son joined the ARMY ?
She THOUGHT that he'd be defending his country, not attacking the soveriegnty of another over false pretenses. If he died in Afghanistan after 9/11, she wouldn't be on Dubya's land.
jackalope wrote:
That he would be sitting safe and sound in the U.S. for his intire 4 year tour ? Its a shame her son died but all she's doing by her protesting is dishonoring his memory and the meories of all who have died in the war.
No she's not. That's your opinion, and I strongly disagree. She thinks she's trying to prevent other mothers from having their sons and daughters die unjustly. Sounds highly honorable to me, even if you don't agree with it.
See, all I had to do was think of what she's really doing, not your interpretation of what's she's doing. Big difference.
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jackalope wrote:I just wish these people knew what there protesting does to the moral of the troops on the ground. You can protest the pres. all you want but leave the troops alone. Dont tell them they're fighting a useless battle when they're doing what they are ordered to do.
I just don't want to see this turn into another Veitnam by these protesters.
The woman who stated all this crap is a moron. What did she think may happen if her son joined the ARMY ? That he would be sitting safe and sound in the U.S. for his intire 4 year tour ? Its a shame her son died but all she's doing by her protesting is dishonoring his memory and the meories of all who have died in the war. Its a horrible thing that he died but he choose to join noone made him and when he went thru basic and learned how to fight and shoot what did she really think he was taught it for.
I can understand where you're comming from... but you have to understand too that there's a LOT of people who support the troops that are over there, because they are doing what they were ordered to do... but do not support the reason our president gave to con us into supporting going over there to begin with.
Open up your mind and think about it. September 11th happened... we go to Afganistan... which was totally justified. We were attacked on OUR OWN SOIL... we have a right to seek justice, and the world pretty much supported us going over there to do so.
So we're in Afganistan... next thing you know... we're in Iraq. What happened to the main focus in going over to the Middle East to begin with?? i.e. finding the guy responsible for our attack on OUR OWN SOIL?!?!?!? We're in Afganistan... BOOM next thing you know we're in Iraq... you have to be able to see something wrong with that.
I'm not asking you to change your point of view, but just to be able to open your mind and see another perspective. That mother is greiving the loss of her son, which happened as consequence of a war we never should have started to begin with... at least not at that time. We never did confirm that Iraq actually had ACTUAL weapons of mass destruction... which as she and many other view as a LIE to go to Iraq.
I'm not saying Bush is a total duche (sp?)... but he has lied on numerous occasions... and I don't feel is fullfilling his TRUE duty as a US president. (That goes for other politicians too)
It's supposed to be "Of the people, by the people, and for the people"... not whoever's lining their pockets with money. Bush should not be taking a 5 week vacation now while there's all this stuff going on in the US.
This is not totally directed at you... but we have entirely too many people on here and in the US that cannot open up their eyes and minds and hearts to TRY to see another's perspective. I have my beliefs and opinions on things... but I at least open up my mind and try to understand where other people are comming from, listen to what they have to say. Even if I don't agree with someone, I can at least understand where they are comming from, and sometimes I even learn something.
Example: I was discussing 9/11 with someone who lives down here in PA now, but is from, born and raised in NYC. I was talking about how we should be hunting down Osama. He said "Well now look at it this way... even if we did get Osama... someone else would be there to take his place... in a sense it's better to just let him be..." and then said a bunch of other stuff. Now I understand his logic, and yes someone else would just take his place. However... he still needs to be punished for what he did. But I listened to everything he had to say... and I actually liked hearing his perspective on things...
Ok I'm rambling again lol
Answering in order is fun thanks AGuSTiN
When you are a soldier on the ground and you hear of someone protesting the war this
comes accross to you as the people back home don't care about what your going thru
in what you are told is there name. See a problem yet.
Lets see why not tell them that there buddie just got killed for nothing? Hmm, If you really can't see whats wrong with that then your just beyond hope.
Nope the anti-war protestors arne't large enough in number and I'm sure they know they could expect a beeting if they did.
He died doing his job. Following the orders of those higher in rank then he was.
Welcome to the military.
AGuSTiN you've never been to war so there is no way you can possibly understand what kinds of things go thru the minds of troops on the ground. I have and I can. You constantly doubt what your doing is right or if you'll be able to return to your life when and if you go home. You need constant reasurence that your doing the right thing for your country. Its hard damn hard to have to go thru war personaly I wish to GOD there were no more wars. But since this isn't likely to happen any time soon then all I can do is support our troops. The best way to do this is to show them we are all behind them 100%. Again if you can't understand this then your beyond hope.
Fallen Angle, I do understand why some would protest against the war but at the time I know how effects those who are over there fighting and dying. Thats all I was getting at. Not that the war isn't wrong or unjust its just that we should not let our troops see us bickering about it. This country should show a united front directly behind our troops that they can see and rally towards.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Quote:
You constantly doubt what your doing is right or if you'll be able to return to your life when and if you go home. You need constant reasurence that your doing the right thing for your country. Its hard damn hard to have to go thru war personaly I wish to GOD there were no more wars. But since this isn't likely to happen any time soon then all I can do is support our troops. The best way to do this is to show them we are all behind them 100%. Again if you can't understand this then your beyond hope.
I don't know what branch you were in, but I remember a Marine @ the US embassy here talking about how some of his orders were "totally f***ed up, sir!" Try telling service people to turn off their brains and behave like good little drones... It doesn't work.
It'd be a LOT easier to get behind a war if there was simple ideaology, and clear cause and effect for the people back home. I'm not going to flog it, but try telling that to the guy that has 2 kids, a wife and an SUV that has to basically either walk or find alternate means to get around because the Iraqi oil taps aren't flowing 2 years post invasion, and STILL has to deal with the Constant State of Yellow Alert.
Afghanistan was a lot easier to get behind:
- Clear Objective,
- Clear outcome,
- Clear and present danger to the USA.
Iraq, well, you fill in the blanks... it's about as political a war as there was... and nothing has really gotten better in Iraq. Still on the brink of civil war.
I can see people understanding when a marine, soldier, sailor or airman dies in combat for a clear and defined purpose. I cannot see people just allowing their sons and daughters to be slaughtered for no clear reason, and just sitting there and taking it.
I wouldn't.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
jackalope wrote:You constantly doubt what your doing is right or if you'll be able to return to your life when and if you go home. You need constant reasurence that your doing the right thing for your country.
......
Again if you can't understand this then your beyond hope.
I don't dispute that knowing you're fighting for a good cause is the best thing. However, as GAM already pointed out, they are not mindless drones. You can't lie to them, or hide knowledge from them. In any war, there's going to be opposition. They will make up their own minds on whether they are doing the right thing or not, and ultimately to them that will be all that matters.
And everybody is behind them 100%, regardless of their opinion on the war. The subject is not one and the same.
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jackalope wrote:
Fallen Angle, I do understand why some would protest against the war but at the time I know how effects those who are over there fighting and dying. Thats all I was getting at. Not that the war isn't wrong or unjust its just that we should not let our troops see us bickering about it. This country should show a united front directly behind our troops that they can see and rally towards.
I understand that... and that goes again back to opening up your mind and heart to see other people's opinions.
I'm sure the troops know that we support what they do... and they should understand that it's not them that some people are not supporting... it's the reason behind it.
There's no way I could join the military (aside from the medical reasons)... I could not survive and keep myself composed during a combat situation. I admire the courage and whatnot the troops have. They are doing something I know I could never do.
It also boils down to how an individual interprets things. I could understand if people in the US were actually saying "Damn those troops, may they all go to hell for what they're doing!"... and getting depressed or bummed out about that... but that's not the case.
If I had a child or family member or loved one that died in Iraq I'd be pretty upset too. Like I said I personally do not agree with why we went to Iraq, and do not appreciate the lies and deception that occured in order to get us there. I feel that the Iraq war was unjustified... I would not want my loved one dying in a war that was started with lies and deception to begin with... and I'd be pretty pissed about that too. That woman's heart was in the right place, irregardless of how right or wrong the manner she went about it... I'm pretty sure she doesn't want other mothers, fathers, wives, daughters, husbands, sons, etc... going to die for this war... it's sad that anyone had to die period.
Think about it... which would you rather die for... or which would you rather see your child die for?
1. Your country was under attack... you went to go find and bring to justice those who were responsible... the very people who killed thousands of our innocent citizens and citizens from all over the world and threatened the security of our nation???
2. Pres throws aside (so to speak) #1... and lies to the UN and Congress about WMD's that do not exist, and many other things that are NOT true at all... a war based on lies.
Honestly here... which was a bigger threat TO US... Osama... or Saddam?
Gam, Never said following orders should be done blindly and yes sometimes your orders do suck. But there is VERY little if nothing you can do about it. Especialy in a combat situation where you either follow orders or people may die. Yes it sucks but you have sworn to follow the orders of those placed in command of you. When your being court marshaled for NOT following orders and it resulted in deaths your screwed.
And regardless of what you may have been lead to believe by the media by the Abugrab
prison scandal is that you can not be court marshaled for following your orders UNLESS you know they are wrong ( example killing children for no reason ) War is hell
that statement exists for a reason Because War is hell but you can not do anything about it.
Ask how many troops believe what we are doing over there is a good thing and I bet you get a 95% responce in favor of us being there from them.
Mindless droan no, but fail to follow a lawfull order and see what happens.
Fallen Angel, I understand what your saying but dont forget our guys are more likely to see Al-Jazera then the 10:00 news on channel 11. And what do you think Al-Jazera
is gonna report on and show but the anti-war protestors with the worst signs and biggest mouths. They do see it there and I can tell you it hurts to see anyone from
here doing acting like that when your over there.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
jackalope wrote:
Mindless droan no, but fail to follow a lawfull order and see what happens.
I think we can all agree that following lawful orders is the bottom line for any soldier. The history of all that led up to that order is irrelevant.
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