Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=674042006
Quote:
BELIEVING that God created the universe in six days is a form of superstitious paganism, the Vatican astronomer Guy Consolmagno claimed yesterday.
Brother Consolmagno, who works in a Vatican observatory in Arizona and as curator of the Vatican meteorite collection in Italy, said a "destructive myth" had developed in modern society that religion and science were competing ideologies.
He described creationism, whose supporters want it taught in schools alongside evolution, as a "kind of paganism" because it harked back to the days of "nature gods" who were responsible for natural events.
Brother Consolmagno argued that the Christian God was a supernatural one, a belief that had led the clergy in the past to become involved in science to seek natural reasons for phenomena such as thunder and lightning, which had been previously attributed to vengeful gods. "Knowledge is dangerous, but so is ignorance. That's why science and religion need to talk to each other," he said.
"Religion needs science to keep it away from superstition and keep it close to reality, to protect it from creationism, which at the end of the day is a kind of paganism - it's turning God into a nature god. And science needs religion in order to have a conscience, to know that, just because something is possible, it may not be a good thing to do."
Brother Consolmagno, who was due to give a speech at the Glasgow Science Centre last night, entitled "Why the Pope has an Astronomer", said the idea of papal infallibility had been a "PR disaster". What it actually meant was that, on matters of faith, followers should accept "somebody has got to be the boss, the final authority".
"It's not like he has a magic power, that God whispers the truth in his ear," he said.
Sorry, I'm bored at work this week
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WHAT!!! So the church has an astronamer ? Thats nuts ! I wonder if he does readings?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
pagan (n.) One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
pagan (n.) One who has no religion.
pagan (adj.) Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish
I'm failing to see the connection here.
^ what connection are you missing?
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I'm failing to see the connection of how Creationism can be defined as Pagan. Creationism, or the belief that God created the world as we know it, is part of the foundation of Christianity, right? Jesus is the son of God, according to the Bible, correct? The Bible talks about Creation in depth and pretty much says that without God, we wouldn't be here. You know, the first day the seventh day, etc., Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, etc... Last time I checked, that's basically Creationism. Am I wrong about this? Maybe I'm retarded and I'm simply talking out my ass here, but I just don't get the connection. And I'm not even Christian.
You missed the point.
The point is that the REAL creation story is not the one so popular in North America IE: God created everything as we see it and did it in 6 days. That has NEVER been the official stance of the church and never will be. Athanasias and ST. Thomas Aquinas both said that "God planted the seeds of life" in creation, not the world as we see it. This has been church docturn since about 300AD, and still people don't get it.
He is saying that the "6 day Creation Myth" is just that, a myth, and one that does not agree with either the Bible or dogma of the church.
Do you see now?
PAX
Mostly. Keep in mind I'm not a Christian, I wasn't raised in the church, so I may still be off base with this. I've read the Bible, or parts of it, research purposes when I was in college. I remember reading Genesis, and to me, that's where this thing of Creationism originates. Again, I may be wrong. But I still don't see how it's Pagan. I understand that it's not the Church's stance, and all that as you said. But it seems t ome that the foundation itself, the mere belief in God, no matter the role, disqualifies it from being classed as Pagan. Pagans don't believe in God. They believe in a lot of things, but God is not one of them.
JimmyZ wrote:Jackalope wrote:WHAT!!! So the church has an astronamer ? Thats nuts ! I wonder if he does readings?
Astrologers do readings.
Thanks Jimmy thats what I ment.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
No Pagans don't believe in the God of Abraham, they often believe in a god or gods.
The Creation story in the Bible is not toughted as pagan, the misinterpritation that is often spouted off by people in North America is. Funny, the 6 day literal translation is not supported by Christians anywhere in the world except North America.. In fact, mostly Southern Baptists, but I'm not going to get into issues of Sczism. Suffice to say that many believe they are right, but are wrong, and soley because they refused the guidance of 200 years of teaching. They are exactly the reason that the medieval church did not want to translate the Bible into English. Church officials were worried that people would read the Bible without guidance and make terrible errors in their interpretation. Hmm, guess they were right afterall huh?
PAX
HAHA, Thats what I've said for years now. Thanks for backing me up.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
As have I.. I ment to say "2000 years of teaching" but really should have said something more like 1700 years.
If you back to the "Evolution Vs. Creationism" thread, you'll find both of us saying that a couple years ago. People just won't listen. They end up Baptist
Forgive them Lord, they know not what they do.
PAX
My apologies. I should have clarified. Pagans do believe in gods. I was referring to God as the most common reference, the Christian God. Pagans typically have names for their gods. Christians simply call god "God". But then we're hashing it out over semantics. Either way, there's something that I think a lot of people miss the boat on: it's not a matter of fact, but of faith.
ln2johnny wrote:Mostly. Keep in mind I'm not a Christian, I wasn't raised in the church, so I may still be off base with this. I've read the Bible, or parts of it, research purposes when I was in college. I remember reading Genesis, and to me, that's where this thing of Creationism originates. Again, I may be wrong. But I still don't see how it's Pagan. I understand that it's not the Church's stance, and all that as you said. But it seems t ome that the foundation itself, the mere belief in God, no matter the role, disqualifies it from being classed as Pagan. Pagans don't believe in God. They believe in a lot of things, but God is not one of them.
Something you should understand about the old testament is that it is widely understood that it is allegory, or illustrative. The paralells to the Torrah are deeply rooted, and most Jewish theologians agree that much of what is in the bible, inas much as it agrees with the Torrah, is not meant to be interpreted in a very literal sense.
There are sects of Christianity that believe that the Bible is 100% from the lips of God to the page, and there is no interpretation of any passage, and it is a completely literal transcription of goings on.
Fortunately, the greater majority understand that this is not the case... and that the only things that are really up in the air is the miracles of Jesus Christ... Basically, the question is if Jesus was a good guy with some really revolutionary ideas about how we all oughtta treat each other, or, if Jesus was the Chuck Norris of Antiquity.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
pagans believe in a greater power, and the many "gods" are facets of it
So technically they believe in one god or source from which all the others are a part.
In that respect paganism is acceptable by chrisitan beliefs of one god.
Doesn't really matter what the catholic church thinks IMO.
Many paths one goal.
-Chris
Gam, in many ways, I'm one of those people. I really do believe in the ideals that are set forth by modern Christianity, even if I question the source or the structure. Personally, I believe in Jesus' existance. Do I believe he healed the sick with the touch of his hand? No. Do I believe he walked on water? No. Rose from his death? No. Basically I believe he was a man. I have no reason not to. But a miracle worker or a messiah or whatever? Not so much. I don't have that kind of faith in me. Do I believe the Bible is the literal written recording of the words that poured from the lips of God? No. It's a book written by men, and that in itself sort of takes away some of its power because who's to really say if it's accurate or not. It's common knowledge that over the years there have been many versions, interpretations of the Bible. It's been translated from a dead language, rewritten to another, translated again, who knows for sure if it's ever been 100% accurate. But I understand the message the book sends, no matter what language it's written in. I unfortunately have that "I kind of sort of but don't really believe and even if I do believe, I'm not really sure what I believe in" mentality. And the real kick is, I could be entirely wrong.
I could take offense to this, if i know what "offense" was.
But all i'm seeing right now is Mr. Garrison telling Sheila Broflovsky <sp?> "See, that';s what happens when you raise your child to be a Pagan"
However, one of the thing that people miss or overlook (no offense, Rascal, but your post shows that you missed it as well), is that paganism in and of itself is even broader than Christianity, as such, you can't realy pigeonhole it (think hahaha and his southern baptist comments, and compare Southern Baptists with the Anglicans, with the Roman Catholics, with Eastern Orthodox). It's too broad.
There are pagans that don't believe in Gods in the traditional sense, but worship nature around them as a force(s) and not as an entity(s)
There are pagans that believe in one specific god with a nigh-infinite anout of faces
There are pagans that believe that there is a nigh-infinite amount of gods:
Some of those think that there is one all-powerful god
Some think that all of those gods are constrained by an all-powerful force that is non-sentient
Some think that Gods are just an alternative form of reality.
In other words, there's no real common thread, per se (like links all of christianity, and to a larger exgtent, all relegions thatn worship the God of Abraham--YHVH), just the fact that it's "different" from christianity, and as such, gets a bad rep.
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
but look at all the Christian traditions that are borrowed from paganism.
back in the day, during the fall of the Holy Roman Empire, any monotheistic religion (i.e. Christianity) was outlawed. this was a time when a lot of Christians were persecuted.
when Constantine (a pagan worshipper of the Sun God, a monotheistic religion) rose into power, he saw the need to make all of his people happy to try and bring strength to the Empire, and to make legal his own worship in a monotheistic religion. he voided the law, and in turn, made friends with his Christian subjects. his religion, the one of the Sun God, worshipped on Sunday. Christians, on Saturday. thanks to Constantine, and his pagan beliefs, the Christian Sabbath was changed to Sunday.
Easter too, is a pagan belief.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
There are sects of Christianity that believe that the Bible is 100% from the lips of God to the page, and there is no interpretation of any passage, and it is a completely literal transcription of goings on.
Ahh, therein lies the misconception. The 6 day interpretation is not literal, is is improper interpretation. I too believe that the Bible is a truely Holy book and is correct 100% in meaning. It has passed the test of Cannon. On the topic of the six day creation myth, the readers fail to recognise what the word "day" actually means in that passage. It says God made light and divided the dark. One light/dark cycle was called "day". Each "day" is a beginning and an ending, but the "time" period is completely unknown. It doesn't mater how many times you read it, if you stick to the text there is no way you can come to the conclusion that a "day" was a 24 hour period, as defined on Earth.
The Bible has not been translated from translation after translation after translation. Every recognised Bible has been translated directly from the source closest to original that is available. IE: If an original transcript is available, it is used. If not, the oldest availble, confirmed source is used. The teaching is that because it is infallable, the Bible will not lose its meaning if it is translated in good faith.
Pagan customs are part of Christianity because of the persecution mentioned above, but I think there's more to it. I beleieve in one, all powerful God who sent his son to die on the cross, like all Christians, but I also believe that because there is one all powerfull God that permiates all things, many alternate customs have value, and perhaps power. I mean to say, not all things pagan are bad because God made them too.
PAX
Hahahaha: My thoughts on the Council of Nicea aside, I understand what you're saying.
Jarett: Google the Council of Nicea... It's worth the read, although, I suspect you already have.
In2Johnny: Same thing as Jarett. You'll learn about the back-story of the Bible, and why there is no Gospel of Mary, Dead Sea Scrolls or Gnostic Gospels and numerous other books included. It wasn't for the sake of brevity, it was mainly to solidify the Roman empire (which was rife with decay even then anyhow, read How The Irish Saved Civilization by Thomas Cahill... you'll have sympathy for the tax collectors, I promise!) to make sure the Pagans and Christians more or less got along.
In as much as I understand your ideas of Jesus, I think he was as much of an innovator as was Augustus Cćsar, but he was at the very least a man. Truth of fact, we don't know a whole lot about the world we live in, or what lies beyond it... Maybe Jesus was more... Maybe not... but one thing is for sure, you knew who could keep the party going when all that was left was a couple loaves of bread, a couple fish a ewer of water
Oh, one other thing: White space, punctuation.. They're your friends and mine.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Quote:
I'm failing to see the connection of how Creationism can be defined as Pagan. Creationism, or the belief that God created the world as we know it, is part of the foundation of Christianity, right? Jesus is the son of God, according to the Bible, correct? The Bible talks about Creation in depth and pretty much says that without God, we wouldn't be here. You know, the first day the seventh day, etc., Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, etc... Last time I checked, that's basically Creationism. Am I wrong about this? Maybe I'm retarded and I'm simply talking out my ass here, but I just don't get the connection. And I'm not even Christian.
Yes, as hahaha says, the creation story is not meant to be taken literally, as is Adam and Eve or Noah's Ark or Jonah. The belief in these stories as literal fact as told by the Bible is misleading... the stories i nthe Bible can be interpreted a thousand different ways! Science however is based on factual evidence.
GAM, I would like to read up more about the Council. it's mentioned quite a few times in the book that I'm in the middle of, "The Messianic Legacy".
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
sweet. thanks.
check out "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", and "The Messianic Legacy" sometime.
I've actually heard a lot of good things about that Cahill book. my sister works at Barnes & Noble, I'll have her pick it up for me.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
